It is currently Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:52 am



Welcome
Welcome to Tsuruko Maiko
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please join our growing community!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

If you could be a geisha in a foreign Okiya would you:
Are you crazy?! Who wouldn't want to!? 45%  45%  [ 23 ]
Nope, too much work. 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
Well.... I'm not sure... 43%  43%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 51
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:57 pm 
Offline
Junior Maiko
Junior Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:34 am
Posts: 443
Location: Ukiyo
Favorite Geiko: Fukuya_Fukunao
Favorite Maiko: Tanewaka_Fukusato
I just wanted to interject and ask that people be careful with political comments; there are people from all over the planet here coming together for a mutual interest, so let's have respect :) Especially in the topic of a foreign okiya :D No country is better than another to host something like this, so relax.

As for a foreign okiya, having the practice based on something traditionally Japanese, would one (if they were to become a geisha in a foreign okiya) take on a Japanese name, or one very traditional to the country that the okiya is located in? Are we trying to bring Japan's tradition to another country, or trying to create the tradition in another culture? Like, bring Japanese geisha to the west, or create a western style of geisha? Part of the appeal of geisha is that they demonstrate and preserve things about Japan's yesteryear, so a foreign audience may not connect so well to the idea of their people playing Japanese geisha, when they have their own traditions and history and cultural dress to preserve.

(sorry, not trying to mod or anything, I just fear these sort of country-hating topics, especially when they come from something completely unrelated)

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:46 pm 
Offline
Minarai
Minarai
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:47 am
Posts: 105
Location: Pacific Ocean
Yes, that is the problem I am thinking of. A Western Kyoto-style okiya would be a strange thing, at least because of the speaking Kyo-ben requirement. And a Western Western okiya would be no okiya at all, that is 'geisha-house' due to the 'westernness'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:43 pm 
Offline
Minarai
Minarai
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:27 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Delft, the Netherlands
Favorite Geiko: Kikutsuru
Favorite Maiko: Toshiteru
Thank you Kikuyo-san. I admit my 'bear-hunt', even with its AIGF & non-malicious intention was unrelated to the topic.
[For instance: I know, and knew all the time, that it was not a Baltic state, but Russia, no matter how Stalinist at the time, that crushed 75-80% of Nazism in 1943-45 - and no matter how allied Stalin was to Hitler when seizing the Baltics in 1940. Both happened. OK, end!]

Please let's all enter Kikuyo-san's wonderful, welcoming okiya now, and sail on her course in the future, it looks like the wiser one. [I insist the first round of wodka is on me.]

A Japanese-staffed okiya+ochaya in a non-Japanese environment would require some aforehand explanation for the ignorant, I think we can agree on that by now. :wink:
What if we'd connect that Western [or whatever non-Japanese category] okiya to some solid Internet etc. connections - like, for instance, this Board? Or put up a kind of powerpoint-or-so presentation for visitors about what's actually going on in there, and what not! [like prostitution].

But I understand it will remain an uneasy position... :?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:32 am 
Offline
Minarai
Minarai
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:06 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Asian Pearl
Just my opinion: as you know, Japanese society was very male dominated and wives literally used to sit in their homes. Men looked for female entertaining (not necessarily for sex). Geisha were beautiful, stylish, well mannered persons, who combine desire, wisdom, humor, style and care (u name it). There are no similar things in other cultures. So, be sure that in America and other counties in Europe or Middle-East men will thing about those "okiya" as regular whore houses. U have to be totally naive about men to suggest that 30-50 years old person will pay good money for a conversation with 20 years old girl, no matter of her accent, let's be straight about it. Men will come waiting for something else, girls will obey to do not lose their clients and u will have a whore house in your hands, which are totally illegal in US, or u will have female clients, who will come to look on your art skills and etc. But they will not bring real money, sorry for reality.
I see problems not only in future entertainers, but mainly in clients. Geisha business is business as others. Before u bring something, think twice how you will sell it.

_________________
Woman's best asset is her look and knoledge how to utilizite it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:32 pm 
Offline
First Year Maiko
First Year Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 302
Location: somewhere on Earth
Favorite Geiko: no preferance
Favorite Maiko: no preference
you guys are still gladiating yourselves with that? Nobody can jugde something that has never been tried.The same was said in relation of many businesses in the history.Many stuff that were considered crazy years before now are well-secceded like car,computer,coca-cola and the list go on.

If the problem is the way men will see geishas,it´ss not the geisha culture´s fault,but ours.If the large number of women accepts the porno culture and prostitution as natural,how we could expect more respect for us?We don´t need to have okyias in the West to men sexualize women in professions as well in any other field.Curisouly,i am always attacked (sometimes isnulted) when reporting such reality.

_________________
"All empires fall,there´s no exceptions"
Dorian Gray,in The Extraordinay Gentlemen League


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:26 pm 
Offline
Senior Maiko
Senior Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:17 pm
Posts: 817
Location: Florida
Favorite Geiko: Mayuha and Kimika
Favorite Maiko: Fukusuzu
I still think it's a stereotype to say that American men can only look at a teahouse and think of it as an expensive brothel. That makes a rather large assumption on the abilities of American men to understand what the concept of an ochaya is, especially since people here don't a have a problem saying that the American women on this forum understand the idea. To be honest, it's saying that American men are too stupid and too sexualized to understand that a hostess is not a prostitute. Amazingly, American men can get the idea that a geisha is a woman who is hired to help a party be more enjoyable with music, dancing, and conversation. And they can also get the idea that sex is not the obvious conclusion to the end of the night, despite how much the entertainment may have cost. It's not a foregone conclusion that a teahouse in the US would become a brothel. I also think that saying that it would never work in America because men would turn it into a brothel, while saying this doesn't happen in Japan, makes an assumption on the part of Japanese men as well. Somehow, they're more sensitive and cultured than American men, somehow more capable of understanding this rather simple concept? That largely implies that Japanese men are somehow better than American men. I'm sorry for ranting, but I'm really tired of seeing American men get ragged on throughout this topic. It insults a lot of people I know.

_________________
My Deviantart Gallery


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:36 pm 
Offline
First Year Maiko
First Year Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 302
Location: somewhere on Earth
Favorite Geiko: no preferance
Favorite Maiko: no preference
Fuyuhime,i didn´t mention american men in my post,i said western men in general.We can´t deny that sexism is still strong as well as women sexual exploitation and there are plenty of serious studies from my country,many from USA and Europe,that proove what i said.About the the atacks,people in general attack the ones (specially women from the Third Woeld like me) who say we live in pornified cultures (not necessarily people from this forum,i spoke in a general way);Brasil has a strong one for exemple,just take a look at Rio´s carnival to see why so many girls are trafficked.I were almost trafficked,it is very very seriuos,and the demand is created by men from rich countries.To be considered a commodity,a sub-human,by men from USA,Canada and Europe is awful,there is nothing more offensive than that.If it was not true,so why women traffick is increasing? Because we women from poor countries love to be whores or because men from rich country take opportunity over our dispair?

However,it has nothing to do with geishas.The mizu shobai is not the responsable for its problem existance. I just mentioned this fact to ilustrate why people would think geishas are whores.They would be just acting in the way they normally do in relation to women.Imagine women entertaining men without sex.For many people,in the West,no matter the country,would find it suspicious;but in any way,i don´t think it´s the point that is disturbing people here.....
i guess i have found out what is the problem...it´s not the karyukai in itself,but the word "geisha".This word has strange effects on people,and i mean men and women.It is something like cry "shark" in a crowdy beach.

I guess international okyias are possible,but not with geisha.Not only there is this whore-oriented mind in relation to them as well as they already exist in Japan.Why people would hire western geisha if they can hire "genuine" ones in Japan?We would be the eternal "number two",never considered good enough...maybe that´s where the problem is.

_________________
"All empires fall,there´s no exceptions"
Dorian Gray,in The Extraordinay Gentlemen League


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:58 pm 
Offline
First Year Maiko
First Year Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 302
Location: somewhere on Earth
Favorite Geiko: no preferance
Favorite Maiko: no preference
here is one of the sites i know,with the studies i said:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvtoc.htm

*edited because i would like you people watch this excelent video produced by European Women´s Lobby :bunny: :

http://www.womenlobby.org/site/video_en.asp

_________________
"All empires fall,there´s no exceptions"
Dorian Gray,in The Extraordinay Gentlemen League


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:48 pm 
Offline
First Year Maiko
First Year Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:59 pm
Posts: 302
Location: somewhere on Earth
Favorite Geiko: no preferance
Favorite Maiko: no preference
Kikuyo wrote:
I just wanted to interject and ask that people be careful with political comments; there are people from all over the planet here coming together for a mutual interest, so let's have respect :) Especially in the topic of a foreign okiya :D No country is better than another to host something like this, so relax.

As for a foreign okiya, having the practice based on something traditionally Japanese, would one (if they were to become a geisha in a foreign okiya) take on a Japanese name, or one very traditional to the country that the okiya is located in? Are we trying to bring Japan's tradition to another country, or trying to create the tradition in another culture? Like, bring Japanese geisha to the west, or create a western style of geisha? Part of the appeal of geisha is that they demonstrate and preserve things about Japan's yesteryear, so a foreign audience may not connect so well to the idea of their people playing Japanese geisha, when they have their own traditions and history and cultural dress to preserve.

(sorry, not trying to mod or anything, I just fear these sort of country-hating topics, especially when they come from something completely unrelated)


Ah,just now i saw this :bunny: Sorry,i am a bit slow today and my conection is not helping :sweat: !

That´s a good point,actually new traditions should be created once western tastes conserning arts differ a lot from japaneses ones.For this reason,one more time,i can say that what would work better is oiran or tayuu.People will have lot sof arguments to say we don´t deserve top call ouselves geisha as well as lot of reasons to compare us to them;by the other hand,what would they do once they know nothing (or almost nothing) about oiran or tayuu? I have the opinion that we all could join togheter and make a huge hanamachi X3! The forum could be the okami-samas place to discuss problems,arts,odoris,etc.That would be amazing X3!!

_________________
"All empires fall,there´s no exceptions"
Dorian Gray,in The Extraordinay Gentlemen League


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:52 am 
Offline
Senior Maiko
Senior Maiko
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:17 pm
Posts: 817
Location: Florida
Favorite Geiko: Mayuha and Kimika
Favorite Maiko: Fukusuzu
Sakamoto, I wasn't targeting your post, just the many posts within this topic that have made claims that it's a foregone conclusion that an okiya in the US would just become a brothel. I'm not going to deny issues of misogynism and exploitation, I'm well aware that they exist in every nation and like most women have had to deal with them personally.

But I still think it's insulting to say that men outside of Japan are incapable of looking at an okiya and think of it as something other than a brothel. That, I think, is a rather dehumanizing way to look at men, as if they're incapable of thinking about anything without a sexual mindset. If the concept of an okiya was explained in plain terms, then anyone can understand what it is. And if the geisha within the okiya don't accept any 'offers' made to them, then it won't become a brothel. It's really that simple.

_________________
My Deviantart Gallery


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:00 pm 
Offline
Sakkou
Sakkou
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:47 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: chicago
Favorite Geiko: Kikuyuu
Favorite Maiko: Toshiteru
I believe that a foriegn okiya is possible. it just depends on the differnt aspects brought in and a mix of popular western influences. Isn't that what Many of the Modern Okiya are doing nowadays anyway? Sending girls off with clients to Kareokee bars, and to popular modern places to do popular modern things. It truly does depend on what setting you put the girls in and what they are trained to do.
on the subject of men,we all have to admitt a magority of men are constantly thinking about sex. It seems to be permanently burned into a mans mind, whether they choose to activate it often depends on them. It's more common to talk to a man and say, "i know this place where they have these hot girls all around you. wanna go?" and normally the response would be yes. Though normally these setting would be less than pretty. strip clubs and bars can be nice, but we have to admitt a magority of them aren't. IT's a bit sad that this has become part of the western male idea. Strip clubs and bachelor parties are idealized and thats what The U.S runs on. sex simply sells. thats the reason it's the only industry that hasn't failed in the horrible economy. Now i also believe that many men would enjoy a place where they don't feel pressured with all of the sexual atmoshpere around them. As Fuyo-san said, it is an easy subject to get across, but it depends on mindset. I'm sure we've all met a person whose beyond stubborn, and refuses to realize the truth no matter what. I'm sure a few men will react with NO Geisha are always for sex. if they have that mindset then they don't need to go. Bouncers for people with that mindset could be used. :wink: Japanese men..oh japanese men. i believe they are a bit higher than american men. Their culture is so much differnt than ours and so are their belifs. For Japanese men, pornographic magazines are sold in vending machines as is toliet paper. When they grow up in a culture that has fully accepted sex as natural for the human body, they react to sex in a different way. Geisha for many of them are seen as only as an expensive hostess. Someone who laughs at your jokes, pours your drinks, and makes you feel good. For them that is seperate from their sexual culture. American men do not grow up with the japanses culture. they grow up with the american idea where if it looks asian in general it's a geisha and a geisha is a prostitute. Though, there are the men left that can open their eyes and take in the idea that a geiko okiya in America isn't a brothel, but a place where you can bring your family for entertainment, and see a world of women new to you that isn't sexual. and my messy rant is over. :shrimp:

_________________
KotohanaImage


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:25 pm 
Offline
Shikomi
Shikomi
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:11 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Devon
Favorite Geiko: Kikyuu
Favorite Maiko: Toshiteru
Hi Everyone,

I am in the UK. I read through the entire thread before I posted - its been a very engaging discussion :D
In my mind the Okiya is about art and female community. The Ozashiki and Ochaya is about bringing people out of themselves as art is shared with the wider community.

I love the idea of a Western Okiya in the way that it is a matriarchal society that empowers the women who study there. Art has become so competitive in the West, to the point where many do not believe they are capable of producing or living it. This flies in the face of Eastern philosophies such as Shinto and Buddhism which are about paths of mind leading to inspired states that all can appreciate in the colour of the blossoms or the respect for those who have passed. The idea of using the conceived structure of a Okiya to bring together a community of women of all ages so we can listen and share art together again instead of marginalising ourselves is a delight. Girls and mothers could meet, share and grow together within this and be happy to have time to feel pretty and creative without needing the affirmation of 'the man of the house' if one does indeed exist.

As to the Ozashiki/Ochaya aspect, this type of entertainment assists the participant to become more than just an audience. They can play games together, express their own artistic leanings and practice the art of communication that does not rely on having money or electronic entertainment. It may help to build community within a town and help us negotiate the social situations we find ourselves engaging with - hey who had a 'seamless' christmas with the family this past year?
Moreover... the women can feel pretty, geek out in their own way and live in art as the guys do what most husbands seem to do when we gather... have their own chats about Racing, Computers, Ancient Pop "did you know the guy who played the bass in that band also played the lead guitar in that other band?" whilst appreciating the women at the convenient distance we have been speaking of.
Also younger girls who come to art gatherings and classes during the day can gradually prepare for social gatherings, rather than just being dragged along behind their parents, and when they are old enough will keenly join the parent/older sister with the permission of the parent to a party where alcohol is consumed in a moderately controlled way alongside food and community spirit. Rather than those parties they get dragged to where non parents get smashed without thinking or... going out by themselves and getting their slightly older friend to buy them alcohol that they drink in the back streets.

Im gonna try it in my town. It is looking like it will certainly bring people together to start with. Hey I might even make some money for charity and educate some. We used to have an art college near here but it left - people need a lift.

Much love (and a little ducking)
Hachiko x

thanks for listening :thanks:

_________________
A doorway into art geekiness ^^
http://hachisuokiya.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:27 pm 
Offline
Shikomi
Shikomi

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:44 pm
Posts: 3
This topic concerns a thing I've been thinking about myself a lot recently. That is, since I found out about the "polish geishas" (I'm polish myself btw): http://gejsza-art.pl/index/index/language/1
On one side, teaching people that geishas aren't "luxurious courtesans" but artists is a noble idea. On the other, I wish it all were a bit more accurate and not just a free interpretation. Maybe it's good that they are not just copying geiko onto western ground, but since people who watch them probably think they are getting the 100% authentic thing, I must be a bit indifferent about it.

Just as a sidenote, toshiteru-san has written:
Quote:
world of women new to you that isn't sexual

I can't agree about the flower and willow world not being sexual - a kind of erotic allure (bitai) is a component of iki, the aestetic ideal most geiko aspire to. But as I said, just a sidenote :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:48 pm 
Offline
Shikomi
Shikomi
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:11 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Devon
Favorite Geiko: Kikyuu
Favorite Maiko: Toshiteru
Hey Narien.

What a website those people have :p I guess they completely have the emphasis on performance art and creation of performance piece which is good to link geisha almost with kabuki and theatre - a very different route to what people's minds go down when they think the flower and willow world is about sex.

I think that ancountering this group will be good for people to realise the nature of the Geisha as opposed to the other western encounters that are more common - where people who have not studied the culture just enjoy a bit of dress up at a party, flirting and drinking along the way
:oops:

I also like the idea that they are linking the art world together by making connections with other peoples of art in poland. This is moving towards the Flower and Willow worlds ability to know what is happening and make it happen, bring art alive as an experience for all.

:chuuu:

_________________
A doorway into art geekiness ^^
http://hachisuokiya.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:41 pm 
Offline
Minarai
Minarai
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:06 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Asian Pearl
Fuyouhime wrote:
. I also think that saying that it would never work in America because men would turn it into a brothel, while saying this doesn't happen in Japan, makes an assumption on the part of Japanese men as well. Somehow, they're more sensitive and cultured than American men, somehow more capable of understanding this rather simple concept? That largely implies that Japanese men are somehow better than American men. I'm sorry for ranting, but I'm really tired of seeing American men get ragged on throughout this topic. It insults a lot of people I know.

Correct:) But, not only American, I'd say about Western men in general. The only thing stops to put them beneth Japanese is fact that they accept idea of having much more feedom for women, when Japanese men are much more "territorial" for their women. Sorry, if I wrote something you don't like(or your friends don't like). Of course, there are many many exeptions between men and if girls are serious, they can make their business. But it will cost so much money and energy.. and who will train them? It will take a lot from girls, but I don't think it will bring a good money... As a side jopb it is possible, and only. Anyway, good luck!

_________________
Woman's best asset is her look and knoledge how to utilizite it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
suspicion-preferred