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If you could be a geisha in a foreign Okiya would you:
Are you crazy?! Who wouldn't want to!? 45%  45%  [ 23 ]
Nope, too much work. 12%  12%  [ 6 ]
Well.... I'm not sure... 43%  43%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 51
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:25 am 
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Senior Maiko
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Black_Jasmine wrote:
I do certainly. But how many people of non-Japanese descent know about proper way of dressing kimonos? But we can (or we have) to explain.


And how many Japanese girls can do that? There's a reason there's a booming kitsuke dressing and school business in Japan, because most young Japanese ladies don't know how to dress themselves. Everytime I dress in kimono and go on campus, some Japanese girl is coming up to me and asking "Did you do that yourself? Who taught you? By book?!? I don't know how to do that. My grandma has to dress me." Because of this, when most Japanese girls do try to dress themselves, they do a poor job of it. I know, I've seen it (and it was embarrassing).

Seriously, the amount of Japanese girls who can properly dress themselves in kimono is slim. That's why the statement about Japanese people looking better in kimono than Western people is moot. The percent of young people in Japan who can dress themselves in kimono is about equal to that of young people in America (percentages being rates, when the popluation difference is taken into account, the rate of kitsuke people to non-kitsuke people is about the same).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Minarai
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Toshiteru-san wrote:
look where your writing..lol but the basics for kimono are easy enough to learn quickly.. its just lift ,lift ,fold, cross, tie, tie wrap, and tie your obi....
I don't it's easy, otherwise I can't explain the reason of so many Western girls look wird conteporary Japanese girls in kimonos. Also, it could be "ethnical" staff, and as all folklor dresses it looks better on people of particular area. I'm afraid th soy that kimonos are not a picture by itself, but a gorgeous frame around Japanese face. And who is closer to Japanese style of face will be more lucky.
We have an example of White geisha (I mean, some Russian emigrants run to Japan from Revolution and became geisha there. But it was a drop in the sea)
I 'll make my choise between bad dressed Japanese girl and good dressed Western girl becouse I respect artist's labor. But I'm afraid that the most Western (we aren't talking about Japanese) people don't care too much about proper way of dressing kimonos and they do expect Asian looking girl.
I didn't get it:"look where your writing..lol "

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Fuyouhime wrote:
[And how many Japanese girls can do that? There's a reason there's a booming kitsuke dressing and school business in Japan, because most young Japanese ladies don't know how to dress themselves. Everytime I dress in kimono and go on campus, some Japanese girl is coming up to me and asking "Did you do that yourself? Who taught you? By book?!? I don't know how to do that. My grandma has to dress me." Because of this, when most Japanese girls do try to dress themselves, they do a poor job of it. I know, I've seen it (and it was embarrassing).

Seriously, the amount of Japanese girls who can properly dress themselves in kimono is slim. That's why the statement about Japanese people looking better in kimono than Western people is moot. The percent of young people in Japan who can dress themselves in kimono is about equal to that of young people in America (percentages being rates, when the popluation difference is taken into account, the rate of kitsuke people to non-kitsuke people is about the same).


Generally said, they can but they don't want. But if they want, they will be more successfull becouse they are close to this culture: wearing a kimono is just part of this. Anyway, that's my opinion. Maybe, make up sholud be changed for Westerners.
I'm sure that in the future Western girls will work as geishas in Japan (I even don't doubts that they will perform some traditional art skills in West), but do you know why? Becouse Japanese lost their interest for learning this art forms, but not becouse we will play better. Foreigners take jobs only then owners lost interest to it. Basically, geisha work never was very respectful (please don't argue, just my opinion), as you know poor parents sold their kids to okiyas. And now, when Japan lives much better and girls have more options, amount of geisha isn't so big as it used to be.
Bur anyway, I wish all of you from all my heart to ger your dreams.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Senior Maiko
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Actually, it isn't a matter of not wanting to wear kimono, it really is a matter of not knowing how to wear kimono. I've talked to a lot of Japanese girls about this subject, and they all say that really don't know how to properly put a kimono on and tie the obi. If they want to wear kimono, they have to go to a kitsuke dressing shop, even for basic styles.

In the end, the only difference between them and American youth is that the Japanese youth know what kimono are supposed to look like.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Minarai
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Fuyouhime wrote:
In the end, the only difference between them and American youth is that the Japanese youth know what kimono are supposed to look like.


This small detail can become a big problem: it reminds me that many Middle Eastern girls don't dance ok, believe it or not, but they know how bellydance looks in a right way. And becouse of this fact, performance for Arab audience isn't the same as performance for American(Russian, Japanese, etc) audience. Good for us, Arabs are pollite(more often). But if you ask 4 Egyptians from 5, they will answer that foreigners can be technicallly better, but their dances miss "ahdalla" (Arab spirit), something that can't be suscribed, but belongs only to them.
I want to agree with you! :) But here is one fact:
I know from my friends and fellow dancers, who have worked from Las Vegas to Tokyo as dancers, showgirls and hostesses in descent places, Japanese hire girls of one particular type. Obvious, they have preferences within White race too.
Once again, I'm talking about professional entertaintment. This job has to meet some certain expectations and a performer's look is very important. The hignher you go, the more importants it is.... :twisted:
In a case of the most nonJapanese kimono wearers, here is obvious luck of elegance contemporary to professional geishas. Sorry, just my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:26 am 
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Hello everyone.
I'm a Brit who's been studying the Flower and Willow world via IG and elsewhere
since spring/summer 2008. I think it sounds interesting to try and have
geisha outside Japan but in my view the geisha world needs the Japanese
environment to flourish, with all the respect, dignity and honour that goes with it.
Maybe that could be achieved by having Japanese people and non-Japanese with plenty of experience of the Japanese lifestyle running things.
I also think you'd have to have the whole thing in a protected area so that it could only accessed by invitation. It would be awful if anyone passing by could just peer in and gawp out of curiosity! :wink:
They'd also have to carefully choose and screen the girls for motivation and ability, etc., the way they do at the top ballet schools, for example.
It would be an interesting experiment but it would need to be handled very carefully indeed! :)


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Minarai
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Mmm... combined with a decent Ochaya or two it would make a nice addition to [or better: become the central ornament of] the EGCC at Amstelveen, the Netherlands! This city has the added boon of a population of some 5000 persons of Japanese origin, mainly expats of course.

The European Go Cultural Centre http://www.xs4all.nl/~egcc/, though started as a Go playing centre, often hires out rooms for cultural activities. I'm not sure whether they ever had a few maiko and geiko to perform, but I now know that would be a serious mistake!

Besides, this way I would not have to travel so darn far to lay my eyes on an Okiya, and of course on its charming inhabitants :shock: .


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:27 pm 
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I'm not sure but I think I wouldn't.
My first reason is that I respect the culture and I know that if girls from other countries would be allowed to join I would do it in Japan but we're not so I think that Jappanesse people would be very dissappointed if we would do such a thing. The Flower and Willow world would die because who would be that dumb and pay huge amouts of money just to go to Japan when they can see the same in their own countries? Not many ... We don't know many secrets about them and we wouldn't be as good as they are. And the most important thing we don't have that much money that we could buy obebbes, antique kanzashi for misedashi....
But that's just my opinion :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 pm 
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But Ichihana [assuming I provoked a reaction :?: ], I was thinking of only one! :lol: And where else could that one be but in the Netherlands?

For instance, celebrated Anjin Miura aka Will Adams arrived on board a Dutch vessel, De Liefde [Love]. And this year the 400-year anniversary of Japanese-Dutch trade relationships is celebrated, our countries have a special, and very old, relation [even though I must say, too, that the non-trade periods of the French occupation of the Netherlands of 1795-1813 and kuroi tanuma of 1941-1945 are glossed over and included within those 400 years].
When Adm. Perry 'opened' Japan in 1853, negotiations were carried out - at least in part, of which I'm sure, and maybe even all - by translations from Japanese via Dutch into English, and vice versa.

And I was definitely not thinking of a non-Japanese staff, mind you. And me. And all of us.

[What's tulip in Japanese? We'd need a name.]


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:48 pm 
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Well you know Lithuania also had this festival as my country is a big friend of Japan too. And may also have a okiya :wink:
I'm not mad or something I just said my opinion :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Junior Maiko
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I just think starting up a karyuukai in a country outside of Japan would be terribly misunderstood by that country's natives. We just don't have the same understanding of that sort of entertainment, and I'm afraid it would turn into some kinky sex business in the end, or die. Money is a big issue with starting out; you need the proper makeup, and I stress proper because I have seen too many kimono-san or people playing dress-up come out looking like a Halloween geesha-girl. No offense, I guess it just comes down to the person's commitment to the role. And then there's the issue of plentiful high-quality kimono, which will add up quickly, and you'd probably want to be able to commission your own kimono. Then there's etiquette, knowing how to dress, and originality. To start an okiya you would need your own mon, for the darari obi and kurotomesode and such.

Like everything, for this idea to work it has to start from the bottom (and the bottom outside of Japan is a little lower than in Japan itself), and even if the tradition takes root now, we probably won't see our intended results in this lifetime. At least in Japan, stuff is readily available (an old building to convert, the teahouses, the kimono, the wigmakers, makeup supplies, etc etc), and the culture is willing. We geiko enthusiasts are just to small of a demographic right now to make it work :(. I'm not saying yes or no to the subject, I'm always on the fence, but I know I would always favor true Japanese geiko no matter how a foreign okiya turned out.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:08 pm 
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Dear Ichihana,

in my vocabulary 'provoking a reaction' not necessarily means a mad reaction! On the contrary, I appreciate your opinion.

It's a good thing the three Baltic nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have gotten rid of the Russian bear. In the 1990s I met a guy from Estonia and I said "Honestly, I know only two things about Estonia: Tallinn, and Paul Keres". As it happened, discussing Chess Grand Master Paul Keres [1916-1975], the 'inofficial World Champion', really 'opened the door', so to say!

Mmm... a Lithuanian okiya still would be within fairly easy reach from the Netherlands. Japan is so far away, :oops: sadly...


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Quote:
Russian bear

be careful with your words, aha?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:49 pm 
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OK... Soviet bear, is that more correct? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What do you think about an Okiya outside of Japan?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:46 am 
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Gurita Taisho wrote:
OK... Soviet bear, is that more correct? :wink:

Dont worry, your friends are making revenge. And they werent angels during their own independ Republic time. At least in Latvia.
Did I make you more happy?
Lets to do not point our fingers to somebodies face: US is playing role of International policeman for a long time. For you American political role is right, for the other nations, especially in Middle East, America is evil, which has to be destroed with any price. So, please, let's avoid any political mean comments: here arent any saints.

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