Exactly, Tsukiyuu. Having another perspective would also be very healthy.

I have really mixed feelings on this.

On one hand, I'll admit that no career could ever make me happier than being a geiko. It's like a soul calling, and having a foreign okiya would be the easiest way for girls like me to have their dreams. I think a foreign okiya would be an ok idea, as long as real Japanese okaasan, and possibly a few geiko, would come over to set up these okiya and train the girls. I'm sorry but I don't trust anyone else to do it right lol. I think it would be an interesting way to keep this tradition alive.

BUT, we can't justify this by saying "the Japanese have adopted Western traditions". What have they adopted that compares to this?

I also feel that it would be a slap, no a kick from a horse, to the face of geiko culture and tradition. I feel the best way to be a foreigner and become a geiko is to get accepted into the karyukai (and I don't mean through anthropology!!! I mean really living in Japan, speaking fluent Japanese, getting to know people, etc). Westerners (and I'm speaking from an American point of view) still have muddled ideas about what a geiko is. And of course, any woman who entertains guys as a job is a whore . (Not to mention the fetishized view of Asian women.) Also if these foreign okiya were to start popping up there would be floods of stupid girls clambering to be geisha, as a fad I guess. There would have to be an immensely long screening process to seperate the people with sincere interest from the people who watch too much anime. And, Westerner maiko would be so old compared to their Japanese counterparts. It's my observation that Western 13-year-olds don't look 13 anymore; they wouldn't have that youthful maiko charm. And, what the heck would foreign okiya girls do? To establish these okiya, in essence we would have to make a Little Kyoto district in all of the big cities just to give these girls something to do other than sit around all day. There are just way too many things to factor in that are not a part of Western history or modern custom. I just don't think it's the right time for foreign okiya.

As for a tayuu/oiran "okiya", that would really be a brothel. I don't understand why you wold bring back a career without a job. The hard fact is that Tayuu/Oiran were prostitutes. And to have girls dressd up as tayuu/oiran and entertaining in geiko fashion just mixes up history even more. I just think it would be copping out of work to get all dressed up in full tayuu/oiran garb, call yourself a real tayuu/oiran, and never have sex. I'm not advocating or bashing legalized prostitution (that's a whole new thread lol), but I think the idea of bringing back the tayuu/oiran profession without the sex makes no sense. It wasn't a glorious thing, though it sure as hell did look it with those wigs and kimono and geta; many girls were sold to brothels and kicked out before they turned 30. Imagine how young Western Tayuu/Oiran would be thrown out if it's based on appearance?

EDIT: I think it's really nice to have this discussion here, as it isn't allowed on ImmortalGeisha. I think it's a necessary thing to discuss on a forum built of non-Japanese geiko enthusiasts. But I do understand ImmortalGeisha's desire to not be held responsible for any foreign okiya attempts.

I believe that geisha art skills like dance or playing shamisen and, maybe, preparation of tea will meet a big success outside of Japan, but "full set" of geisha performance - never. Why? First of all, Japanese socium was predominatelly a men society where a wife doesn't play a hostess for their guests under any circumstances. Ask everybody who was in Japan in 1950, they will tell you that everywhere in clubs, bars and all other entertaitments places were only men and women from entertaitment business. Now times is changing and there are less and less need in professional female entertainer (I mean under "entertainer" not a sexual part becouse everywhere in descent places are men with their gf or wives.
I forgot about conversations. I heard many times that conversations between geikos and their customers are far from intellectual, sorry. It much more about flirtation than sharing of independant opinions.
Now, about ochiyas here. Are you going to take little girls and to train them in Japanese traditional art skills? I hope, you aren't . Forget about places for adults females, becouse you will be in a big risk of turning from ochiya to a regular brothel.
But, I believe that thing are possible, but you have to remember:
1. 99% Blacks and Whites usually look stupid in kimonos, I don't know why. Or, better to say "fake". Any Asians, no matter Japanese or not, will be more popular than nonAsians. Just know that.
2.Forget about conversation: you can't be fluent in Japanese and that's mean you can't be a real geisha; plus the way Asian talk berween themselves is different from Western.
3.Be prepare for povetry: American culture is related to strip clubs, but not art. 90% men here prefer to see complitely naked women with a possible gravitation. I wouldn't call them even strippers becouse mostly they were naked from the beginning, all they did was an animal looking "lap dance" and the reast of them who wore something were "dancing" in a very primitive way and everything was sleazy; maybe somewhere exist different clubs (rare as pink gulls), but they don't make a difference. Conversation with strippers?? Well, some of men buy prostitutes for talking but it doesn't mean that they are not prostitutes(just example, no offence). Why did I write it here? Just to say you that Americans will not pay you a good money to see a glimps of your wrist when they can see naked pussies galore. And not only Americans, Japanese men too.
But I believe in good future for Japanese traditional art abroad of Japan becouse:
bellydance was introduced to americans in 19th century. Nobody even thought that bellydance could be popular here. 25 years ago Alabama had only 2 professional bellydancers. Now it is difficult to say "how many". NonArab bellydancers win in competitions, work from Marocco to OAE. Just more patience and everything will be possible. Here is shortage of women beauty presented in a nonwhory way.

I agree with you about how it just would not work in America...and points 1 and 2.

Although will have you know I am an actual stripper, and I actually take offense to your comment about strippers. Actually a lot of men come in to our club, not just to see naked women, but just like a Japanese husband from the past..they're lonely and they want to talk. If a girl isn't charismatic then she will make no money, if doesn't matter how pretty or skinny you are, like a geisha if she isn't skilled in pole dancing and conversation, customer interaction is key to making your money. Those of us who are successful in this business, like Geisha, have to be skilled. The longer I have worked in this industry, the longer I have actually seen many similarities between the Adult industry(As far as stripping goes) and the Hanamachi life. I should write an essay sometime about it.

Other then that I too believe that an Okiya wouldn't work, and this conversation always annoys me because anyone who believes this would work is like..."But, but"...But nothing Western customs and mentality are very different, instant gratification, thus why stripping is more popular, and it has even gotten more popular in Japan.

I don't think an okiya would be successful outside of Japan at this time, but I don't think those are the reasons for it.

I think non Japanese people look fine in kimono provided they are wearing it well. I also think several Japanese people look like crap in kimono. It's individual, and to say an entire ethnicity is ill-suited to the look is generalizing.

It is possible for people to become fluent in Japanese, not only in a conversational level but at the same level as a native speaker in which they are capable of understanding nuance. Liza Dalby was fluent, and I know several people personally who are fluent. Japanese is not so complicated a language that a person cannot learn it unless they were born speaking it (there isn't any language that complicated, only people who are ill-suited to learning foreign languages). Also, the idea is that it is an okiya outside of Japan, with women entertaining people of that country. Why would they need to learn Japanese?

I think it's insulting to American men to say that they wouldn't like the entertainment of women unless it was at its most base. American men are capable of subtlety and refinement, and I know many who are enthralled by the idea of such women. In fact, most of the American men I do befriend dislike the idea of 'easy' women, and find sophisticated women more to their taste. I think they would enjoy the atmosphere of an ozashiki.

well said fuyo-san!

okay..

1.. no they don't. many people can look wonderful in kimono. you just have to know how to wear it well, and how to match up kimono items.

2. again, if your making an okiya outside of japan in your own country why in hell would you need to be fluent in japanese ? sure its a bonus but you don't need to. and what do you exactly define as a "real" geisha? a woman, who what ? wears the kimono, has learned the skills and is purely japanese? well if thats how you see it, your wrong. a geisha means person of the arts literally. does it say anywhere in there japnese person of the arts? nope. person of the japnese arts maybe. to me aslong as your skilled in the profession and know what your doing then you would be a true real geisha. would you not call liza dalby a geisha , even though she is trained in the arts , fluent in japnese and became a geisha for a short time in the 70's?

3. yes american culture is very highly sex related. and men keep going to those kinds of things? you know why? because its been embedded in their brains. and you know why most men would prefer to se a sripper v.s an artist? because many many men haven'ta clue as to what to expect? they think it'll be something boring that they would most likely fall asleep through. thats why you need this, you need to try to show other ways of entertainment to them. better ways then being in a hot club filled with barely clothed girls and men surrounding a table. yes, i'll give it to you that strippers dances aren't very well, classy, or as classy as one can be while sliding down a pole wearing next to nothing. and im not doubting a man would choose to see a naked women over a girl who can entertain him in more ways than the other while staying fully clothed. but yet, ther are those men who would choose art over sleez, who do like something more extotic rare, than your average stripper or prostitute. Its all about what demographic you market to. if you market to dirty old men then thats what you get, if you market to more, how to say it, more.. um.. knowledgeable men then thats what you will get. and who even says that the market is only men. the ochaya's in japan, market to not only men but women and families.



comments like this completely annoy me. we don't say "but, but ,but".. you say " this won't work because of this one type of man and nag nag nag..."

i would like to point out, that while strippers have become more popular in recent years, so has the cheap and sluty stripper. the stero type of the dumb stripper *you know highschool drop out ,doesn't know left from right* has become unfortunatly more opular as the idea of a stripper aswell. and i unfortunatly, must say that i have met multiple girls who i have known before they became strippers or after and they are just .. ugh.. down right stupid. so with me only knowing stupid strippers, who i love nonethe less, i would have to say why in gods name, would you pic someone who pokes themselves says ow and then does it again over a well trained geisha, foreign or not.? plus, very quickly on the subject of men, as much as men may hate to admit it, women rule them, we can make them go left and right, so women what type of entertainment would you prefer the men to go to? a stripper or a geisha, seeing as we know what a geisha actually is.

and that is my opinion on this subject. my views. how i take the world to be. my right from wrong. there are people who disagree with me and who i disagree with but, thats the world.

Cortana,
First of all, I'm very sorry that I made you feel bad! Probably, You are a good performer like this one or even better, but from places here like "Pink Pony" or "Cheetas" (which are considered to be best!), .... honestly, I was offended that thoose individuals called themselves "dancers", and when I said that to some of them(of course, not in this way), they answered me"here isn't a dance hall", and many more examples that local strip clubs can't show any ok level of adult entertaitments. I know that erotic dance could be very interesting, difficult and intricating, but I don't see that. Sorry! Again, I want to think that you work in a very good place and you do something different. And about conversation: 1)as a performer, you have to know that a performer hasn't sit at the table with customers, it's a big "no-no"2) this type of conversations calls "consumation" and the main target is to sell alcoholic drinks, right?
Sorry again, if I wrote something you don't like.
"Other then that I too believe that an Okiya wouldn't work, and this conversation always annoys me because anyone who believes this would work is like..."But, but"...But nothing Western customs and mentality are very different, instant gratification, thus why stripping is more popular, and it has even gotten more popular in Japan"
Well, my opinion is clear: okiya will not work, but some traditional Japanese skills can be performed with a big success". What is annoing here?
Of course, strippers are much more popular everywhere, but it isn't about difference in mentality. McDonald is popular everywhre, but it doesn't mean that they serve a good food.

It isn't generalisation, sorry. But I'm an optimist and I believe that it could be possible changed (I mean a way of wearing kimono), but I still believe that on some nonAsian people it looks much better than on others becouse of some physical apperance(I don't have ideas why).
With Japanese language things will be much more painfull (of course, if you wanna dance and play shamisen - it's not necessary. But the higher you go, the more requarements you will meet. Knoledge of Japanese will be a big plus). For how long it will take, all of that: from wearing kimonos in a good way to a study Japanese basic to have idea what songs are you dancing for?? Long time, but it is possible.
"I think it's insulting to American men to say that they wouldn't like the entertainment of women unless it was at its most base. American men are capable of subtlety and refinement, and I know many who are enthralled by the idea of such women. In fact, most of the American men I do befriend dislike the idea of 'easy' women, and find sophisticated women more to their taste. I think they would enjoy the atmosphere of an ozashiki."
Really? Did I say something like "American men aren't capable for anything but for so-called "strip"?? I don't think so. Becouse I think opposite: people can be entertained in a different way: salsa, samba, Arabic or Indian dance, whatever you or they want. Wake up: besides of strip here, in US, are a lot of beautiful arts like ballroom dance, Latin, Middle Eastern; musicians any kins - just ask.. But are they popular? No! The problem is that they (men) don't want to make their brains work after job.

but do the ball room dancers play the obiage game wih them? i think not...

but do the strippers play the obiage game with them? I think not eather.
What is really upset me that people start to pick up on words and details and the main idea is always missing (I mean all messages addressed here, on this tread, to me). Why do you oppose Western dancing form to Japanese traditional entertaintment? We aren't rivals! I'd be very glad to see successful Japanese traditional art performers. The way is long and difficult, but it is possible. And some things could be (I'm sure) very sad: be sure that even you are a great with shamisen and dancing, tea preparation (I'll be very happy if somebody teach how to drink tea in a right way here, becouse those small trash bags full with suspishious dust is not tea, ok?), kimono wearing and etc., anyway you will be always overstepped by a real Japanese girl, even she is not better than you in any of those skills. That's sad, but this is reality.
I came now from one bellydance event, which was really good: some girls made a high level artistic performance. Generally, they sacrified a lot: they could buy good cars instead of wasting money for studying; two of girls are ok in Arabic. But who were in their audience? 90% were women. Where were men? Fuyouhime, do you have any ideas? Becouse I don't want to insult our men doubting their capability for sofisticated performances. Let's think that men were busy with listening music of Bethoven or discussion niances of 19 century French literature.

probably more like a bikini top game...*no offense to anyone* i don't personally oppose western dancing vs. japanese dancing. i like both very much.. some styles more than others... like i love the fox trot and quick step from western points of veiws while from a japnese point of veiw i like the kabuki style and the more fast paced commoners dances. to make this come to life, you just need a good solid plan with all the kinks worked out and a soild funding base.*how to drink the tea or how to make it? because the drinking is the easy part, they place the bowl in front of you ,they bow, you bow, you pick up the bowl. placing your right hand on the front part of the bowl,almost like you were grabbing something dirty inbetween your fingers, you turn the bowl clockwise 3 times, then take 3 small sips.* not all times will you be over stepped by a japanese girl. let me ask you, if a true japanese girl and an american girl came up to you standing side by side, both dressed in a full geisha regalia, but the american girl dressed better who would you chose? probably the latter. now after that, they showed off their skills and the american girl was better who would you chose? probably the latter again. one thing about the entertainment business in this matter is that is doesn't have to be accurate *in the all japanese girls sense, kimono ect. is something different entirely* it just has to be entertaining and fun to do and see. thats why you pay for your entertainment.

we can always hope to the deepest depths of our hearts, that they were discussing the ups and downs of bethoven or french liturature.

i get what you mean Jasmine-san

Maybe not the obiage game but we do have our own games we play, drinking games at the tables or even playing Jenga with the dollar bills they put down. Or I even get the guys to compete with eachother "who can make the best origami dollar".

I do certainly. But how many people of non-Japanese descent know about proper way of dressing kimonos? But we can (or we have) to explain.

I made a new topic here

look where your writing..lol but the basics for kimono are easy enough to learn quickly.. its just lift ,lift ,fold, cross, tie, tie wrap, and tie your obi....