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 Post subject: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Misedashi
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..as you can read about it here :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/libertybullet/7119610523/


:thanks:

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Do you know what hairstyle this is? It's very distinctive.

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:06 pm 
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If you mean the hairstyle in the photos, I think it's the usual shimada (tako-shimada?I'm not sure of the name,sorry) that the geiko's katsura is styled in nowadays,however in the 20s real hair of geiko-san was used,hence it looks a bit different than the nowadays katsura.

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:18 am 
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reihana wrote:
If you mean the hairstyle in the photos, I think it's the usual shimada (tako-shimada?I'm not sure of the name,sorry) that the geiko's katsura is styled in nowadays,however in the 20s real hair of geiko-san was used,hence it looks a bit different than the nowadays katsura.


Thank you!!! :thanks:

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:44 am 
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I think in your research you need to consider that not every woman with the -ha in her name is necessarily all from the same line. My guess is most definitely not, actually. First parts of names and second parts of names could be the 'family,' name, you can't tell or know from a program. Take for instance 'Teruha,' she could be of a -ha line or a Teru- name. Currently in Gion Kobu, we have a -ha line AND a Teru- line, and surely in years past when we had significantly more practicing Geiko and Maiko, this was beyond common. There could've been several -ha lines in fact, we still have a couple different Mame- lines to consider, though there is a differentation of the kanji. In some instances.

It'd be like assuming all Smiths are related. :P

I've done research on Tamakazu for some time now, and I think something that gets overlooked is that she did not become a Okaasan until somewhere in the later 70's to 80's.

So, this is where my theory comes in:

I think the -ha line we know is actually relatively modern. 70's to 80's in fact. As far as I know, the most senior Geiko of the -ha line is Tamaha, and I believe that is quite significant.

I believe the Tama- in her name comes from Tamakazu, and the -ha is the beginning of HER line, so that is shows respect and deference to both her Okaasan, Tamakazu, while recognizing her own family line of all the -ha girls.

I'm wondering if it's like some Western cultures in the past ( not my focal point in anthropology ) either Scottish or Irish ( As I said, not my focal, so feel free to correct me on which it is, it's been a few years since the information was retained ) but where a son would take his father's name + son as his surname. Say Gilbert's father is John, he would be Gilbert Johnson. Gilbert has a son, and he names him Steven, so Steven would be Steven Gilbertson.

I hope honestly the point I'm trying to make is clear enough and I'm making sense. It's late, I'm tired and fried, and pretty much just distracting myself at the moment by being all anthropological.


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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:13 pm 
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I can understand your point Tsuruko :) However there are some situations where we can just guess it happened like so - and - so. So it's more of a hypothetical situation where I took it as ''everyone'' was part of the same -ha line,even though it's ofcourse-possible that they aren't. And the ''ha'' kanji is also shared in all the geiko and maiko I found,so there probably is some kind of relation between them.
Even if it isn't, it's fun as hell to look at their hair lol!!
(I didn't mean it as an insult ofcourse.)

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:04 am 
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I read somewhere before that the -Ha line from the Tama okiya descends from Takeha, who agreed to be onesan to Tamakazu's girls since they're bffs. Takeha's name is written on erikae papers still as the "grand onesan" so this seems to be a legit reasoning.


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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:33 am 
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That's a point too, but there were -ha girls even before Tamakazu became a geiko :)

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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Well yes, Takeha was a part of that line likely. Unless you asked individuals of that line personally, I don't think you'd be able to trace it back before then. The erikae or misedashi papers likely no longer exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Researching Gion Kobu's -ha line
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:25 am 
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Again though, yes, there were girls with the name particle of -ha in their names, that doesn't mean they're in anyway related. Myloko brings some important information with the Takeha bit, but Takeha is also not going to be related to every -ha. A lot of Japanese name particles are more literal, in a sense than our own surnames and such. Because of this, that makes the instances of their naming process easier to gain like particles to other girls. You have 'Sweet Bean,' and 'Shining Flower.' If 'Shining Flower,' got her name from her older sister 'Shining Star,' that means her line would be 'Shining,' but that doesn't mean she's related to every girl with Shining in her name. There may be a girl named 'Shining River,' but she gets her name from the 'River' part of her name, her onesan's name is 'Dark River.' Or, her family name IS 'Shining,' but her family is a different one, or maybe her line is divergent from another Geisha who was named "Shining Girl," but her line came from 'Girl,' so her onesan's line is from 'girl,' but she's now started her own 'family' tree with the 'Shining,' part of her geimyo. In the Japanese naming system there really *is* a certain limit of how many names there can be, or what combinations there are. There is a *huge* overlap just in the names that are used. How many Mamechiyo's have there been? Mariko? Etc.

As I said some time ago, not every Smith is related. Nor is every -ha girl related to every -ha girl. Same with a Mame girl to a Mame girl. In this we can apply a lot of very basic genealogical processes. If you're studying any sort of cultural or social anthropology, an understanding of genealogy is *extremely* important.

And with the way the kanji is written, there's no way at this time to pick out who belongs to what house, or what name, or what version of that name, or how many different Geisha houses had a line with an emphasis on a certain particulate. It's impossible to tell. Much of that information is long gone, or its in a place that'll never see the light of day again or the eyes of anyone who would be interested in. We're far too used to this internet age thing, where most anything can be found again with a certain amount of perseverance, because somewhere it's preserved. But goodness, go try to find photos of even twenty to thirty years ago, and information on Geisha or who was who, or what family they belonged to, is next to impossible with the exception of odori programs, and they do not tell us who belongs to what okiya or yakata, or who is onesan to who, though if they did, they'd be even more invaluable, but that isn't the case. Before the internet, we were the paper age. And we still lose things in the computer age. But houses burn down, things get wet, things get tossed away, and in some cases, the records of who was related to who only existed in a few sources.


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