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karyukai theme for your location/country?
oiran 50%  50%  [ 3 ]
tayuu 50%  50%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 6
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 Post subject: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:48 pm 
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First Year Maiko
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Well,as i told some days ago,here i am to re-post that thread of mine,but with more serious contents.I ask for you peole take it seriously.If any moderator wishes,that old thread can be deleted.

Let´s suppouse the situation is real,a international hanamachi is possible,however,considering USA and Europe,geisha theme is not recomended (in my country is ok to keep geishas,in the other member´s,i don´t think so,due what i have been reading in that old thread about geisha okyia.However,if someone desagrre,feel free to say;the only basis i have in this matter is what i see in geisha foruns).
In front of this ,wich theme would be more suitable for your location?

I will collect this data for studing business estrategy,so it is no longer that "cosplay" silly thing.

thank you very much for your cooperation :bunny:

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Junior Maiko
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I'm not sure if I understand...

So, hypothetically we are assuming that non-Japanese countries want to import the Tayuu/Oiran tradition of prostitution, and you are asking whether our country/area would prefer Tayuu or Oiran?

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:18 pm 
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First Year Maiko
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Kikuyo wrote:
I'm not sure if I understand...

So, hypothetically we are assuming that non-Japanese countries want to import the Tayuu/Oiran tradition of prostitution, and you are asking whether our country/area would prefer Tayuu or Oiran?


Sorry,but when did i say that o.o? :sweat: !!! In the other thread of mine,it is clear that it is just the theme,the job is geisha job.In other words: how the "geishas" would be dressed like.

I can´t understand why you thought that :sweat: ...

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:36 pm 
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First Year Maiko
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I guess i sacre people when i am too formal :sweat: ...so,here is more info,posted in my "tradtional" way :bunny: ,before someone think i am a madam,like those "experts" from IG.

So,considering that many western girls dream about becoming geishas,i start to collect info consern a western hanamachi during the time i have been out of the boards.According to what i hear,i had the conclusion that a western karyukai is possible,however,unfortunally for many,it can´t be geisha,because people will link that to prostitution.When i mentioned tayuu/oiran,people said they had no idea about what that was,so i showed pics,they liked and prefered the endumentary.

For people from my country: geisha is ok,but their endumentary is "ugly"( monocromatic).Colorfull stuff are more beautifull.

So,that´s the reason,only that.I also herad nice coments related to culture,the need of good and cultural entertainament,got some girls here interested....suggestions about instruments,vey amazing :bunny: ,and i came here to see if you peple would like something like that too.I could observe people arte more enthusiastic with tayuu and oirans,and in no circustance i hear the word "madam","protitute" and similar stuff.

So,that´s it :giggle: .Just a matter of taste.

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:40 am 
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Junior Maiko
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So... wait. Western girls dressed as Tayuu/Oiran, performing the role of geisha? I'm having a hard time understanding your English, I'm sorry.

So... the West hypothetically wants to have a "karyuukai" of their own, a Japanese-themed pleasure district of sorts, where the women dress as Tayuu or Oiran instead of geisha, because Westerners typically find Tayuu/Oiran more attractive or interesting than geisha...? What is the appeal of this? Like, from the people you asked, what sort of entertainment were they expecting? I don't mean, "Are they expecting sex?" I mean, why would they want non-Japanese women dressed as Japanese courtesans entertaining them? I understand that many people want to experience meeting or seeing real geisha and/or Tayuu/Oiran, so why would they want a cheap, inaccurate imitation?

How are these Western "Tayuu" girls expecting to know how to behave and entertain without being formally trained? Would you still call them Tayuu/Oiran even though they are nothing close, or are you assuming that you would send these girls away to be trained? I'm sorry for all the questions, I'm just having a hard time understanding the idea. :/

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:22 am 
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In what country are you wanting to do this?
I think unless you had the old teachers of tayuu/oiran teaching new girls then it would all be very gimicky. I can't see anyone taking it seriously. There would need to be a lot of public education because tayuu/oiran don't come from the West and therefore there's no history and no reason for them to care about these girls.
Maybe a henshin studio is a far better idea than trying to make a business. I just don't see anyone taking a Western girl dressed as a tayuu/oiran performing a geisha's duty being taken seriously. Plus, mixing tayuu/oiran with geisha duties is bound to confuse the public even more about the geisha-prostitute idea. I don't see that helping the geisha in Japan.
So, a henshin studio or classes in Japanese arts in the West: Yes. Women dressed as tayuu/oiran but acting as a geisha as a job: No.


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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:44 pm 
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well,i will try to do my best to not to come here and reply with arrogance in front of the attacks i am seeing here...i am starting to understand why men are more well-suceeded in businness and inovations in this world than women,once women are stuck in senseless traditions and don´t have the geniality of them.Francally,i doubt this "female competence" if you are even not able to understand a simple idea.

First,you both are assuming that i am not seriuos,and second,again i see the same arrogancy i saw many times of western,specially americans,think they are able to speak for the japaneses.That is ridiculous.I am also tired of this "geishas are sacred,can exist just in Japan" Does anyone here know how many stuff japanese people copy from other countries? Does anybody here know that japan can be considere "son" of Chine due the stuff it coped from them? Is to be trained to serve men something so sacred?

why do your countries will need a karyukai for prostitution once you accept lapdance and stripper clubs? will tayuus and oirans dance naked for the public? wht will make clients associate karyukai with prostitution is women´s slutish behaviour that can be observed in America and Europe.

I always support other peole ideas,never come up saying this or that is ridiculus,but when i come up with something, i am attacked.Tired of this,i even start to think there´s some kind of racism involved.why kimono-san is something accepted in a certain way while my ideas are not? very curious!

As nobody came with support or educated questions,i am no longer interested about what do you girls think or not,i will act like the men do: ignore what you have to say.What can´t be taken seriously is american and european women,not a western karyukai.

Thank you in any way,i am convinced that i must keep women very far from my business,no matter what it is.Tired of this female ignorance.

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Geiko
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No-one has shot you down. You asked for our opinion and we gave it. Market research doesn't always agree with what you want. Anyway, this is a very small sample size and really quite unspecific. Go and ask the public of your country about how they would feel about some sort of karyuukai. Questionnaires and surveys; these are what you need. In the end, what we think doesn't matter as long as you have a target audience in your country.
Of course things get transferred from country to country and of course it works. There are so many wonderful foreign restaurants and classes where I live. It's just, in my opinion, there is always someone there who has trained a long time in their art who can pass on their knowledge. For example, sushi chefs have trained for years from a master who learnt from a master. I don't care where my sushi chef is from, because I know there is this long tradition in place. Have you got a good set of teachers with experience in place? As much as you may not like to hear it authenticity - anywhere in the world - is a good thing! If you're just passing on what you've learnt from reading then no-one is interested, but if you have a good set of teachers who knows what they are on about of course people will be interested.
This isn't criticism but advice. It's always hard to take something from one country to another, but if you have the money, experience, time, advertisement and wisdom then you can do anything. You have to have a set plan to make this work.
So, get out there! Make it work. That's all from me.
Edit: I'm sure you've read it, but this is a very helpful thread. Ask Dr. B. If anyone knows how to set up a business like this, then they'll be the person.


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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:27 pm 
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I agree with Risha and want to add some things aswell.

First of all if I would be japanese I think I would feel offended if someone completely foreign would try to sell such cultural things. Another thing is that most foreign people are unfamiliar with geisha and their looks so you should get ready for misunderstandings but my most important point is that the name of geisha will get misunderstood even more. Most people already think that they are prostitutes and now your Oiran/Tayuu appear. What will people think? That , of course, oiran/tayuu are the artists and geisha truly are prostitutes. And if for e.g. someone gets interested and starts a deeper research the person will be very confused because the information he/she will find will highly differ from what you have to offer.
If you would open a Geiko okiya and would start educating people about them and Japanese culture that would be so much fun and interesting.

Anyways good luck with any plans you have.

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:06 pm 
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Sakamoto wrote:
well,i will try to do my best to not to come here and reply with arrogance in front of the attacks i am seeing here...i am starting to understand why men are more well-suceeded in businness and inovations in this world than women,once women are stuck in senseless traditions and don´t have the geniality of them.Francally,i doubt this "female competence" if you are even not able to understand a simple idea.


You are not being attacked and this is not "female competence". We are trying to understand what you mean and we understand it that you want this: women ACTING the role of GEISHA but DRESSED as OIRAN/TAYUU am I right?

Sakamoto wrote:
First,you both are assuming that i am not seriuos,and second,again i see the same arrogancy i saw many times of western,specially americans,think they are able to speak for the japaneses.


Based on their replies, I feel they are taking you seriously. And this is not a matter of race or nationality. If you must know, I am an Asian and I understand completely what Kikuyo and Risha and Ichihana mean and I agree with them.

Sakamoto wrote:
That is ridiculous.I am also tired of this "geishas are sacred,can exist just in Japan" Does anyone here know how many stuff japanese people copy from other countries? Does anybody here know that japan can be considere "son" of Chine due the stuff it coped from them? Is to be trained to serve men something so sacred?


The point is not that it's sacred but it's a DELICATE topic. While general culture can be adapted as your own (i.e. Chinese culture adapted by Japanese) it is a COMPLETELY different thing because it will also be affected by the CURRENT SOCIETY, that is Japan did not completely adapt Chinese culture, they just took elements and incorporated it into their own. There is a lot, but they did not take EVERYTHING. And they still called it "JAPANESE CULTURE", not "Chinese culture" anymore. And if you forgot, after the "copying episode" in the Nara period, Japan shut itself from the world and adapted a policy of isolation, thus there was little to none of any Chinese culture that came to Japan anymore.

HOWEVER, adapting GEISHA ways but using OIRAN/TAYUU way of dressing yet still calling it GEISHA is just like calling Japanese = Chinese because there are similarities, that's also like calling UK = US just because they speak the same language.

The geisha culture places so much emphasis on clothing. And if you miss that point yet still call your hanamachi a "geisha hanamachi", that would be DISRESPECTFUL. That is one of the reasons why Kimono-san are called such, because they do accept the fact that they are not actually geisha but are very much influenced by them.

And what is it with Japanese copying other countries? Hell, my country copies more than probably all countries in the world put together.

Sakamoto wrote:
why do your countries will need a karyukai for prostitution once you accept lapdance and stripper clubs? will tayuus and oirans dance naked for the public? wht will make clients associate karyukai with prostitution is women´s slutish behaviour that can be observed in America and Europe.


Are you even aware that Oiran/Tayuu are PROSTITUTES?
and that the word Karyuukai means the flower (in reference to the Oiran/Tayuu) and willow (in reference to the Geisha) world? Did you know that going tabi-less in the Meiji period was equivalent in the Japanese society of what you mentioned "dance naked for the public" and that Oiran/Tayuu never wore socks?

Oiran/Tayuu also wore too much clothes to display their wealth and status. Geisha wore subdued clothes to display their ART. I hope you haven't missed the memo: "Geisha are artists."

I honestly think you need to have an open mind to different cultures. Not the western culture that you seem to be familiar with, rather the Japanese culture IN DEPTH.

Sakamoto wrote:
I always support other peole ideas,never come up saying this or that is ridiculus,but when i come up with something, i am attacked.Tired of this,i even start to think there´s some kind of racism involved.why kimono-san is something accepted in a certain way while my ideas are not? very curious!


Kimono-san are accepted outside of Japan because they not only act like geisha, they also preserve the geisha traditions to a certain degree. That is, they look like geisha and they act like geisha. Not everyone learns by action or by spoken communication. Some people learn visually, that is, if they learn by seeing. That's why it's important for your "geisha" to look like one; so that the customers will know how a true geisha in Japan looks like.

Sakamoto wrote:
As nobody came with support or educated questions,i am no longer interested about what do you girls think or not,i will act like the men do: ignore what you have to say.What can´t be taken seriously is american and european women,not a western karyukai.


Why do you want questions from us when you were asking questions? Of course, our replies to your questions would be answers.

My answer to you would be, I'd rather you open a geisha okiya with people wearing what geisha wear than if you open one with women wearing oiran/tayuu wear and cause confusion in your country.

If you do want to open an OIRAN/TAYUU hanamachi, then do as they do. This is simply a case of do it right, or don't do it at all.

Sakamoto wrote:
Thank you in any way,i am convinced that i must keep women very far from my business,no matter what it is.Tired of this female ignorance.


Female ignorance? Really, now. :giggle:


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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:23 am 
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Junior Maiko
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ladyhendrix wrote:

If you do want to open an OIRAN/TAYUU hanamachi, then do as they do. This is simply a case of do it right, or don't do it at all.



I think this sums up my opinion very well. This is not a matter of sex to me. To me, this is a simple matter of accuracy. Geisha are not sacred, but they are iconic, and unfortunately misunderstood, which is why If your reason for choosing Oiran/Tayuu appearance over geisha appearance is because the people you asked said they found geisha boring, I don't think they are the sort of people who would appreciate geisha-style entertainment anyway.

Japan has a somewhat unique social context surrounding the geisha, in that it is understood today that the karyuukai is a place for women to non-sexually entertain men (and even some Japanese are still unsure on the sexual boundaries there, so it really takes being "in the know," or part of the community to fully appreciate what goes on there). Does your country have an equivalent social context for this type of entertainment to happen?

Where I live, we do not, which is why I would not want to import women who look like prostitutes but are not (it is false advertising lol). We have bars and restaurants where they higher only very sexy women -- not for sex but just for show -- who flirt with the guests, and this is about as close as we come, similar to the Japanese bar-hostess job. There is no art, no history or meaningful cultural display of tradition.

I think it would be really cool to adopt Oiran/Tayuu style, and change it to make it unique to your country. You could create your own geisha-inspired tradition of entertainment, but in my opinion it would be wrong to call these women geisha or Oiran, because they are not. As Risha said, training is vital to being taken seriously. You need geisha to make geisha, Oiran to make Oiran.

And on the topic of Kimono-san, it is a very, very, VERY small business that is done as a side-job only. In my personal taste, the Kimono-san that I have seen look very costumey and they are not a type of entertainment I would hire, despite my love of real geisha. I would not say it is an "accepted" job, because it is still too obscure for the public to really take notice to.

And you are talking about a hanamachi, which is a community. You can't survive off entertainers alone; you would need wig dressers, kimono makers/cleaners/sellers/dressers, accessory stores, tea houses, restaurants, and people willing to patronize your community on a regular basis. If you are serious about this, it might make more sense to start off sending your girls to entertain at restaurants or such, before being able to step back and let the people come to you... sort of creating the hanamachi setting as you grow more wealthy, instead of starting from scratch with all your own buildings?

And on an economical point, I doubt you would get very many serious people, who can handle training and performing around their everyday life unless you had a stable clientele. It would be of use to study how the geisha tradition of entertainment began, because obviously they did not just magically become successful, skilled, full-time geisha overnight.

Personally I think a job like this would be very fun and interesting, but there are so many details to consider and figure out, that I doubt I will ever see a full-fledged foreign hanamachi in my lifetime.

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 Post subject: Re: the old thread reviwed: oiran or tayuu hanamachi?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:01 am 
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It is an interesting idea. Adapting the geisha ways or some of the oiran ways would best work in a classroom setting showing people what it is like or what it might be like to experience actual Japanese music, and maybe tea ceremony. That being said though they could never be real geisha or oiran it might be interesting to send the girls in training to japan where they might learn from teacher's who were connected to that world in order to bring some part of it back. It may even be neat to bring an actual geiko or maiko into the event as I believe some do travel from time to time. As a cultural exhibit for people who have never heard of geisha or oiran, it could be rather interesting.

As for making a living at it, it's doubtful. A full hanamachi in the states or in some other countries would not be thought of well and as it is not entirely authentic may lead people to avoid it. Not to mention that theirs a lot to learn about running such a business as well as costs. Just as others have said one doesn't learn about geisha or oiran overnight, it will take a long time to put together. In the meantime as Kikuyu indicated, you would then have to worry about taking care of the trainees and their families,etc.

But, as stated before as a cultural event it might do just fine. As the real thing I could not see it personally...at least, not yet.


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