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oiran or tayuu okyia in your country?
oiran 35%  35%  [ 6 ]
tayuu 65%  65%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 17
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 Post subject: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:05 pm 
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I am just curious,i don´t intend to create a polemic thread.It is only a iki question.It is more designer and fashion oriented than anything else.If this is not the right place for such poll,so please put in other board :giggle:

Let´s supouse that an international okyia is possible but not a geiko one because off allt those stuff discussed (but the job would be geiko-like,nothing to do with prostitution;please don´t misunderstand this).So,what iki would you girls would like to dress like :bunny: ? What would be more the ultimate fashionable and would give more liberty in relation to create ? :giggle:

Again,it´s not about if a business like this would work out or not,or how westerns would face it etc.It´s just to know your ideas about iki tastes,handcraft possibilities and similars,stuff that is not relationed to geiko and maiko.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:09 pm 
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Oiran definitely, that cutting-board knot in the front is my favorite.

But, I think you've misunderstood the term iki. It doesn't just mean fashion, it's a specific type of fashion in which both Oiran and Tayuu are the antithesis. Iki is subdued and subtle refinement, much more like a geisha from the early 1800s. If you just mean fashion, then oshare is the better word.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:46 pm 
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I second fuyouhime :D Oiran FTW. The hair is what really does it for me.

Oiran and Tayuu are definitely not "iki"... sometimes I think they may be the foundation of "decora" fashion, lol XD. They are too flashy to be iki, and I think the blatant knowledge of their position as prostitutes takes away from the iki factor as well. I prefer the "iroke" sexuality of geiko.

Though, I honestly don't think Oiran fashion would go over well with the Western audience. Not because of the profession, but because it is just too out of the normal to really become integrated. It looks more like haute-couture "look what I made" stuff... the stuff that very few people would buy or wear in daily life. I suppose you could vaguely allude to Oiran fashion, through say bare feet in rather high geta, deeply dipper kimono (or some other apparel) collars, obi tied fancifully in the front, etc. It would be awesome to see that come into style, and I think it would go over better in a Western country that isn't really familiar with pre-defined kitsuke "rules". But first we'd have to establish a larger kimono-wearing base to really bring it into fashion.

What would be the purpose of this okiya? For girls to just live together and dress up? To me, an okiya implies a group of people living together because of a common profession. A geiko-like job (like a kimono-san?) using Oiran-inspired fashion seems to send mixed messages. Like, our clothing alludes to Japanese Oiran (known for selling sex), but we do the non-sexual job of a geiko, but not really. I think it would be too much to adapt to at once, that it would take generations of integration into society.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Kikuyo wrote:
IWhat would be the purpose of this okiya? For girls to just live together and dress up? To me, an okiya implies a group of people living together because of a common profession. A geiko-like job (like a kimono-san?) using Oiran-inspired fashion seems to send mixed messages. Like, our clothing alludes to Japanese Oiran (known for selling sex), but we do the non-sexual job of a geiko, but not really. I think it would be too much to adapt to at once, that it would take generations of integration into society.


It is a hipotectic situation,i didn´t mean i will open an oiran or tayuu okyia,i just would like to know what you girls prefer.Only that.Just curious about if you had the choice of dress like one of them,wich you would be the best in your point of view,in realtion to everything:culture,arts,iroke,etc.

I think people are still "traumatized" with that other poll :sweat:

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:26 pm 
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I didn't mean to drag in the sexual aspect again XD but my main point was that "okiya" implied work. If you just meant dressing up as one or the other, I'm sorry I misread your post. My vote still stands at Oiran :D

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Kikuyo wrote:
I didn't mean to drag in the sexual aspect again XD but my main point was that "okiya" implied work. If you just meant dressing up as one or the other, I'm sorry I misread your post. My vote still stands at Oiran :D


that´s ok :D .I know this "okyia stuff" is a delicated subject :sweat:( but who knows? LOL :giggle: I think anything would work out,but geisha.... :giggle: ) ,i just would like to create a situation instead of that well-known question "wich do you prefer?" we see so much around in boards.I guess when you see the possibility of working dressed like one,the weight of the kanzashis,the kind of obi knot,etc make a lot of difference. :bunny:

However,curiously,when i asked women in general who don´t know the karyukai,almost everybody prefer oiran.Even men (in the same situation).Nobody feels interested in tayuu what leads me to think that tayuu were extingued first,alçthough there are some tayuus in Kyoto to preserve their culture.

I also imagina that oiran were,in a certain way,more "modern" than tayuus,wich were more tied to traditions (court arts).

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:30 pm 
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I don't quite understand now, do you mean comparing
modern Tayuu to modern Oiran? Or comparing historical Tayuu to historical Oiran? If you're talking about the historical sense, then yes, Tayuu disappeared first. Tayuu were predecessors to Oiran, at least in Yoshiwara (there's not enough documentation on Shimabara to state if they also went through a Tayuu to Oiran name change [if they did, then I want to study this subject more]). If you're talking about the modern sense, then true Tayuu and Oiran were both banned by the government at the same time during the Japanese Occupation.

But to be honest, in either case both of them have about the same level of tradition, with both historical courtesans being equally traditional and their current equivalents being much less tied to the profession. I don't think any of the modern Tayuu treat it as 'a way of life', so to speak. I think it's just a job, and not one that takes up a good deal of their schedule. I've also seen Oiran douchu where the Oiran performs a tea ceremony or a dance afterwards, so they aren't just unskilled actresses. Some of the women hired have some skills, like modern Tayuu.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Fuyuhime,i were talking about the time before the 1954 law.I once talked to a japanese girls that have the same interest in oiran and tayuu than me,and she told me that in the times where pleasure quarters were legal,the preference was oiran not tayuu( according to her) and the "modernity" i mentioned was because i am supousing that,as geishas from Edo were more open to modernities (like Liza Dalby mentions on her book) oirans should be as well.

It is a pity that no one is interested in preserving oiran and tayuu culture.Geiko are far more taken seriuosly.I guess it would be more interesting,if this idea of international okyia go ahead,to be an oiran or tayuu training oriented (without prostitution,of course;we are not commodities).Geisha would be a hell,as we could se in the other thread.So,to rescue something extingued would sound more apropriated.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:27 am 
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Well, I noticed there was a definite preference in Japanese media to use the term Oiran. I only heard the word Tayuu used in the Kansai Region. I think it might simply be because Tokyo's the capital and it's language is considered the standard.

But by 1954, my research has shown that there was a roughly equal amount of Tayuu in Kyoto and Oiran in Tokyo... whether they were skilled enough to be considered Tayuu and Oiran in another story ;). The quality of the pleasure districts was non-existant by that point in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Well,i am just beliving in what that japanese girl told me :bunny: ...it has been a headake to find nice information and that japanese contact of mine is no longer very often in msn :( ....

About your other question,people always prefr oiran,no matter if is the historical one or the modern.The most curious is i never mentioned the words oiran and tayuu when showing the pics and almost everybody showed interest in the oirans.You can see that even here nobody voted for tayuu (i won´t vote :bunny: ,just making reaserching withou get involved in it).So weird! maybe oiran has the same enchanting power than geisha,because even when people don´t know them they get fascinated :shock: very weird indeed.....

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:55 am 
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That's interesting. I wonder what it is about the Oiran's image that's more compelling... It might be interesting to make a study of that. When you show images to people, do you ask what it is they like? Maybe it's because the Oiran's image is a little easier to understand? People can basically figure out how that big cutting-board obi works, and there are less twinkingling moving hair ornaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:41 pm 
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sorry about taking so long to come here,i always forget where my last posts were :sweat: ...

well,i will tell about the used method: the oiran etc were introduced in the middle of cosplay oriented talks.In a certain point of the chat,i asked to the people in question wich one would suit me better for a cosplay,and then,wich one they would like to dress like(even to the men).The historical tayuu was considered "interesting but too simple";historical oiran was more acceptable and easier to make because of the hairdo.Modern tayuu was "too exagerated" and modern oiran was "more graceful and glamorous".historical oiran x modern oiran : the modern one was considered better because of teh posibility of using sparky material according to them (i still don´t know what they meant).

I didn´t mention anything about karyukai,yoshiwara,cortsans arts,etc i just would like to know the visual impact,not even that they were cortsans.People thought they were other "styles of geisha".I got surprised because considering teh high number of people that like maiko,make flower kanzashis i though they would prefer tayuus.Everytime when i mentioned modern tayuu i said i would make a maikolike kanzashi,but people prefered oiran in the same way lol :bunny:

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:50 am 
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editing..i guess i will create a more serious poll about this issue...

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:58 am 
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I'm late in coming, heehee, but I prefer a tayuu's look to the oiran... I think I love the hair accessories more. And also that obi knot which is similar in style to the shellfish knot...

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 Post subject: Re: Oiran or Tayuu okyia?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:39 am 
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I have been busy and still not able to stop,take arest and come back with my polemic stuff :twisted: .....however,i have been doing some reaserch and been finding interesting details about this international okyia issue....there´s almost nothing about tayuu and oiran,the material found online and some books are more or less "speculation",so everything suggest that if an international okyia is possible,it "must" be tayuu or oiran themed.

In the begining i asked people just for a cosplay...now,i am daring more,going straight to the point and they do prefer tayuu/oiran (many can´t see any difference between them)to do geisha services in the West.The possible reason: although many people around the world admire geisha,they associate it strictally to Japan.however,they don´t see oiran/tayuus like that,they say westerns look good wearing clothes(??).As i am not a schollar and my method is,hum,amateur-like( :sweat: ), i can´t say why it happens( i guess you guys can post the reasons)

The conclusion? well,an international okyia is possible (YEAH :giggle: ),however,maybe the theme won´t pleasant many of the girls interested in working like geishas..... :bunny:

I will post here an other more seriuos thread and discuss it more.I belive you people will love what i have to say

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