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 Post subject: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Shikomi
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:?
I have read the posts in this thread and found them very enlightening. They show a wide variety of coming of age ceremony aspects of various cultures and backgrounds of the Forum members. Many cultures around the world require certain skills and attributes to consider a girl a woman and Japan's Geisha culture is no different. Among those skills are the arts of the profession (dance, musical instrument, tea & sake etiquette, conversation ). Prior to1956 it also included sexual initiation.
In many cultures virginity was seen as a condition of being in childhood. Adult women were expected to be familiar with the arts of pleasing a man and sex was one aspect of this. In certain cultures ( those where a woman's identity is based on the status of her husband or with religious influence - Christian, Jewish, Muslim for example ) virgin brides are required as the man is basically looking for a producer of children and chastity insures the children are his.
In the case of geisha, children are the responsibility of the ichigo-san primary wife, so it is not a trait one wants in his nigo-san 2nd or his sango-san 3rd wife( For men in cultures that have polygamy as an accepted lifestyle form all the women in his care as designated as wives ). In the geisha world of old, sexual experience was not seen as a negative trait but part of the coming of age process. Sexual initiation was a plus. I have also read the descriptions of the process and I do believe that the egg method was employed in this ritual. ( The whole purpose of doing it in this manner was so the girl was not traumatized by sex as she is in the West where all sex is dirty and good girls don't enjoy it but do it as part of her duty to the man who pays her living expenses. If viewed in this manner marriage is a form of slavery where a woman earns her keep by providing chef, maid, laundry, hostess skills as well as child bearing services. A far worse fate then the sale of services for the purposes of obtaining the necessities of life such as food, clothing, shelter and some luxury items). Another fact of life after 1956 in Japan, from what I was able to find translated , prostitution is defined as heterosexual intercourse involving only vaginal penetration which is indeed a very narrow definition of what is defined as prostitution in the Western World.
Sexual experience was not seen as prostitution as it is in cultures where sex is confined to marriage and then only for the reproduction of children. The mizuage patron never had any '' claim '' on the woman after the ceremony as a danna would in his role of patron or a husband in his role of sole owner and ruler of every aspect of a woman's existence. The money paid was to insure a proper debut as a full fledged woman of the arts, which in every sense of the word meant providing a man pleasure, non-sexual as well as sexual. The payment of a dowry in the marriage negotiations was seen as a payment to show the man could afford to support the woman and also as compensation to the parents or guardian for the loss of services of all the jobs a woman is required to perform for the benefit of whom ever controlled the woman.
Anyone who takes the time to study of all forms of relationships between men and women through the ages will see that many cultures had some form of rules regarding sexual contact inside and outside of '' marriage '' as well as the definitions of marriage. Prostitution is legal in many culture's by way of controlling the way it is conducted. Brothel's in Red Light District's is one way of regulating as well as taxing the commercial aspects of sex. Gentleman's Club's are another way of confining the illusion of prostitution. Men go there to view women in various styles of dress or undress to fantasize about sexual availability which may or may not exist. It is the forbidden fruit that they want not necessarily the fruit they get. Prostitution is in the eye of the beholder as seen through the eyes of the moral code enforced by law in any particular society. BOTTOM LINE : MEN WANT SEX. They will pay for it, marry it, seduce for it, use alcohol or drugs to impair a woman's judgment for it and if all else fails take it by force. Other men will make money off this desire buy renting, selling or taxing other men's access to it. Women are always the focus of these laws as they are the beneficiaries or victims of men's desire's for sex. Prostitution is only a crime in culture's where sex is sinful or it has been judged sinful by the conqueror’s, with women being part of the prize. :thanks:


Last edited by Tsuruko on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Adult Themes not suitable for discussion by minors


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: Ritual or Rape
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:53 pm 
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I'm moving this to the advanced discussion, and I'll be changing the title. It could be could triggering for some, and it's also 18+ discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:08 am 
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Wow, I have so many issues about your discussion that I could likely write a thesis from them >.> However, I'll forgo the paper and break it down as such:

-"The whole purpose of doing it in this manner was so the girl was not traumatized by sex as she is in the West where all sex is dirty and good girls don't enjoy it but do it as part of her duty to the man who pays her living expenses." That is so incredibly sexist that I honestly can't believe that you bothered to type that. It's pretty obvious that you're a male by writing this, but please be respectful of the women around here and the women that you're writing about.

-"Another fact of life after 1956 in Japan, from what I was able to find translated , prostitution is defined as heterosexual intercourse involving only vaginal penetration which is indeed a very narrow definition of what is defined as prostitution in the Western World." Back in the 1950s countries all around the world did not recognize homosexual sex acts, so the only real definition of prostitution was the one that you provided. Western culture has nothing to do with that.

-"The mizuage patron never had any '' claim '' on the woman after the ceremony as a danna would in his role of patron or a husband in his role of sole owner and ruler of every aspect of a woman's existence. The money paid was to insure a proper debut as a full fledged woman of the arts, which in every sense of the word meant providing a man pleasure, non-sexual as well as sexual." A danna never "owned" a particular maiko or geiko. They were financial supporters that did not control her life. Supporting a particular geisha (especially if they were popular) was seen as a status symbol and promoted a man's image as a patron of the arts. The only "perk" of being a danna was having priority to spend time with a certain maiko or geiko, but never in a sexual way. While not exactly polite, a maiko or geiko could decline their time with a danna. Sex was never a part of this deal. If the danna and the gei/maiko had a sexual relationship then it was outside of any business dealings and was done by personal choice with no money changing hands. Maiko and geiko were never taught any sexual techniques in preparation for their mizuage nor were they expected to know any.

-"The payment of a dowry in the marriage negotiations was seen as a payment to show the man could afford to support the woman and also as compensation to the parents or guardian for the loss of services of all the jobs a woman is required to perform for the benefit of whom ever controlled the woman. " In most cases it was the woman's family who paid a dowry, not the man's. It's why many cultures developed a disproportioned male/female ratio since a female child would need to be "paid off" to her husband's family while a male child would have income brought in once he found a woman to marry.

-"BOTTOM LINE : MEN WANT SEX. They will pay for it, marry it, seduce for it, use alcohol or drugs to impair a woman's judgment for it and if all else fails take it by force. Other men will make money off this desire buy renting, selling or taxing other men's access to it. Women are always the focus of these laws as they are the beneficiaries or victims of men's desire's for sex. Prostitution is only a crime in culture's where sex is sinful or it has been judged sinful by the conqueror’s, with women being part of the prize." I almost didn't bother to comment on this one (again) due to the blatant (and highly incorrect) sexist remarks. Why do you think that only men want sex? Women are sexual beings and not objects. Do you not think that women will do the exact same things as men for sex? Your final sentence is horribly archaic and I can't believe that someone would say that in the 21st century.

Also, please use a word processor the next time you're going to write anything. You have an extremely high rate of grammar mistakes and it makes it a bit hard to understand what you're trying to say when a person has to sit here and figure out what word you're really trying to use.


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:11 am 
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Myloko, while I appreciate your feelings given the discussion, please refrain from Ad hominem attacks. Attacking a person's grammatical abilities is not at all conductive to a discussion. Be aware that many of our members do not speak English as their first language.

Also, to assume the poster is male because of misogynistic remarks ( that could possibly be lost in translation ) would be. . .misandry, and sexist as well. Pot meet kettle.

On one of your points, talking about prostitution, that would be incorrect. Since Judeo-Christian times, in the Western world, has homosexual acts not been considered sex. The Greeks and Romans were well and accepting of our kind, and there were plenty of same-sex prostitutes or prostitutes who went both ways in Greek and Roman societies.

It is also worth noting that Japan's own stances on sexuality, whether gay, bi, straight, etc, is a very recent thing. Pre-Perry and pre Industrialization, no one cared, no one really gave much a care( though you had societal expectations, and more so if you were a noble and such ). Do you know that young men, and boys were forbidden from Kabuki like women? Do you know why? Because of issues with prostitution. Evidently, male to male prostitution happened and it was in fact still sex. Most of our issues with Japan are honestly issues we caused within their society.

And to say that Geisha never had sex for money is an outright lie. Geisha were not prostitutes, in large, but there were certainly Geisha who played prostitute. Double Registration, remember? There were quarters that were considered Geisha quarters, but were still red light districts.

Most of our knowledge of Geisha centers upon those in Kyoto and Tokyo, and some in Atami. We look at privileged cities and assume so much. A Geisha who cannot pay her bills, cannot afford new kimono, may be forced, in times past, to use her wiles and her body to her advantage. It is nothing short of sheer romanticism to assume that Geisha didn't do this when put into a poor situation. We would be expecting perfection then. Geisha ARE human and humans sometimes make choices we may or may not agree with. It does not sully their trade or their art, though. In one breath we murmur that sex is just that, sex, but in the next, we damn prostitution and equalize sex workers to being the very worst sort.

It needs to be realized that this is part of the problem, that we still so clearly equate sex as something bad. If sex is just sex, then what matter does it make if money changes hands in order to obtain it? Of course, there is issues given our current climate on women's rights(and the issues in the past as well ), most definitely, but in a perfect world. . . Honestly, am I okay with a woman being a prostitute of her own free will, and doing it responsibly and being empowered to be able to do such? You betcha! I'm a feminist that believes a woman has the choice to make anything of her life, so long as it makes her happy and keeps her safe. You need to read Sayo Masuda's autobiography clearly, and it may be a good idea to watch Mikio Naruse's Woman Ascends the Stairs. Were Geisha sex workers? No and Yes. That is not such an easy answer. The districts that now remain are most definitely not of sex workers, but were there Geisha who worked as sex workers as well as Geisha? Yes. Definitely. It was looked down upon in Japan, for a Geisha, but it certainly happened or the term double registration would not exist.


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:50 am 
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Rebuttal:

-Back in the 1950s the legal definition of prostitution did not include homosexual acts. However, the shogunate of the Edo period was aware of prostitutes that did things both ways and did define what their did with either gender as "sex" in their laws. Legal definitions change over time. Yokomaru only brought up the issue of sex in the 1950s and not earlier.

-Going back to the Edo Period and the law, the double registration women were in a class all of their own. They weren't full time prostitutes/courtesans/etc., but they also weren't full time geisha. It's hard to place these women into a category that isn't "exception to the rule." So, for general argument's sake, I left them out (you could literally pick *anything* in the world and there would be an exception to the rule, so I went and gave the more "black and white" answer).

-As for geisha having sex on the side, every profession likely did it. Prostitution is one of the world's oldest professions lol. However, for single registration geisha sex wasn't something that they offered in their job description. If they had sex on the side for money then it was kept hush hush. If the shogunate found out about it, the women could actually be thrown in jail o_O. Yokomaru, whether informed or not, was suggesting that maiko and geiko were taught sexual techniques as part of their trade.

As for the sexist remarks, that's an entirely different story. Even trying to account for English as a second language, the repeated references to women being owned by men is apauling.

Also, GOOGLE CHROME! It has a built in spell checker! Everyone in the world should be made to use it! Seriously, sometimes I feel like the current generation of humanity is becoming more stupid than any others before it due to the numerous simple mistakes in spelling and grammar that are dooming the English language. I remember once watching a video that involved a student setting up a security check on some of the computers at a school that involved a little grammar quiz. If a student who tried to log on couldn't correctly identify the proper term/tense/pretense/etc. from a list of multiple choice answers then they were locked out of the computer and had to continue to re-take the login quiz until they got it right. I think that we should use this is every school @.@


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:46 am 
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The fact is, the line between prostitution and sexual favors is one that can easily be blurred. Would you say a woman who traded her body for a night for a kimono was a prostitute? Probably. There is actually a rising trend in escorts in the US and other parts of the Western world trading their bodies for high end merchandise to sell to throw authorities. Now, let me ask this, would you consider a woman a prostitute for sleeping with a man because she felt 'obligated,'(and sadly, there are men who feel that women owe them sex because they pay for a meal, and in the next breath call another woman loose for sleeping with more than one guy! ) because he paid for dinner? No, you probably wouldn't. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I wouldn't say Geisha were taught sexual 'techniques,' because that's pretty stupid and sounds like something from the hypothetical sequel to MoaG. However, given the disenfranchisement of women century after a century, and millennia after millennia, the unfortunate fact is that cultural pressures have led to women basically using their bodies as power, or what little power they can garner through the use of them. To assume every Geisha was a good and virtuous ( and I use virtuous as a woman of upstanding morals as in being kind, gentle, loving, talented and whatever else, not in a chastity connotation ) is a bit of a stretch. I mean. . . Mineko's sister? So, I push this, would you call a woman who seduced men to get them to sponsor her, buy her fancy clothes, etc, etc, a prostitute? And there were certainly women 'back in the day,' who called themselves Geisha who engaged in that sort of behavior. And that, to me, goes beyond double registration, and isn't 'outright prostitution,' so to say, but would probably get by officials pretty easily, and if not, the rich danna could probably just pay someone to mind their own.

And that, is where I think there is so much sexual connotations with Geisha and stigmatization in Japan. I do not like the romanticizing of Geisha choosing their danna, or having only loving and romantic sex with whom they wanted. While sure, they might find someone they're attracted to, and stuff happens, but likely not. Even back before the ban of prostitution when things were not as puritanical and white washed as they are now, the men they were entertaining were likely to be twice their age or more, especially if they were Maiko.

Sex happened, and it was not always the most willing, and you bet there was something being exchanged other than bodily fluids in many scenarios. We're talking about older men of Japan in an era where female submission was and is still expected. We're talking about an era where a woman could starve to death or worse, and the only thing staving that off is a cruel man who says he'll get her back on her feet for just a few favors, it only complicates matters when he's older and her superior in the eyes of one's culture, and you should do as he says.

I find great beauty in the Geisha world, but I'm not naive of what has happened in it, or that some really seedy things went down because there didn't used to be one whole catch all definition to what a Geisha was and wasn't. Mizuage did happen, and it wasn't all cherry blossoms and green tea ice cream, even taking into account the normalization of sex in Japan at that time. We're still talking about children, in most scenarios, being raped for profit(profit being that an apprentice becomes a fully-fledged Geisha who can earn a full wage). A child cannot consent to sex. A 15, 16, 17 cannot consent to sex with a 40+ year old man, not even if you get a permission slip from your parent or guardian. ( Sorry, Courtney Stodden.) And while the age of adulthood/maturity is something cultural, a lot of scientists would agree that a person doesn't even reach full mental maturity until 24. And Mizuage did happen, Dalby confirms it, Downer confirms it, Masuda confirms it.

And I apologize for the fact that my argument wanders and meanders around, but it's very late here, and I've pulled a 50hour work week on top of all my side projects, 18 of which hours were worked in the past 36. Still, I do not want to see anyone being insulted because they cannot spell or write to your full satisfaction. I'm sure I'm bumbling around myself on things, and I like to think of myself as a writer, with a novel and a half written!

If the user is foreign, and they're using a browser in a different language other than standard British or American English, they are not going to have an English spell checker. Even mine does not catch everything, or it will catch things that I know are, indeed, spelled correctly, but it's the only browser that runs to my satisfaction. Telling a person they are basically stupid is no way to win an argument. I believe public speaking and debate are required courses across the US for an Anthropology degree?( If not ALL social sciences ) At least, that's how it is here, and I went to one of the best Under-Grad schools in the US for Anthropology, and I choose the one I went to because of its close ties to Japan, versus the other two.

I do not terribly enjoy reading through posts riddled with grammatical errors or rife with spelling errors myself, but if I am to take the higher ground(and persuade the other party to MY view point), than I am not to concern myself with the textual quality of their argument, but to find their argument, and debate against that, but refrain from attacking them via personal attacks ( sexist, bad spelling, bad grammar, etc. ). Tell me, how likely is a person going to listen to me if I call them stupid and insult the way they write?


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:48 am 
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Girls today and back in the day who "flirted" with men so that they would buy them goods isn't prostitution. It's just one way of women subconsciously testing the man's ability to mate (oh yeah, we're goin' old school anthropology here!). In it's basic form, a female chooses a male based on his fitness, which has many forms. One of these forms that still takes place today is the man's ability to buy the woman whatever she wants. If a man can support a woman in her material wants and needs, then he'll likely be able to support her when she has a child. Yes, gold diggers seem like an exception, but they're actually acting on their basic instincts. It's our current society that says, "Hey, a man shouldn't pay for everything for a woman!" or, "It's what's on the inside that counts" (I am aware that this seems slightly harsh, but I'm going with the basic instincts of humans and ignoring our current societal "slogans" for finding a mate).

I don't remember denying that mizuage happened o.oa There's too many sources (and living people) who can atest to that tradition. I think looking back on it, we have a biased opinion of sex that was likely not a factor back then. You brought up the age argument with the sexual act, but what if that is the sole bias? We both know that people didn't live as long as they do now compared to the Edo Period, so the girls started their training at a younger age and their patrons were likely younger as well. This means that the American definition of "age of consent" can't really be applied since it's so high and conforms to our current societal standards of sexual relationships. Here in Canada in 2013 the age of consent is 14, which is much lower than The States and likely closer to the age of consent in the Edo Period. Many cultures have (and still do) marry off their daughters when they begin to menstruate, which is usually between 12 and 14 years of age. If we use the ability to have children as a marker, then this doesn't seem very far fetched (maybe it's just me, but I'm not too surprised by it).

As for the "rape" (again, our current definition is slightly different), there's two things that we have to keep in mind:

1) Mizuage was a ceremony/rite of passage that had an equivalent in many different societies throughout history (ie: not seen as forced)

2) However, most of the time it was done with the girl being uneducated about sexual matters and likely wasn't as traumatizing as rape would be today (In my books though, unwanted sex is still rape, so I feel bad for those poor girls :()

*Holds up a shiny B.A.* I chose my school and my major by accident lol. Originally I wanted to go to my school because I wanted to major in psychology (LOL). Thankfully, at my school you have to take different first year courses from the faculty that you're in, so I took a few anthropology classes. After I found that psychology was HORRIBLE I made anthropology my major and I'm happy that I made that decision. I'm still taking anthropology courses as my electives for my second B.A. (Religious Studies, although it's basically all Asian/Japanese studies lol). Public speaking isn't a requirement up here for an anthropology degree, although from third year onwards the profs really grill you into making posters and power point presentations that are conference worthy.

As for the "mean" stuff, I've been writing most of my replies between 2-3am, so by this time I'm tired, cranky, and quick to judge. I'm sorry for my rudeness (_ _)


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:42 am 
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Shikomi
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:? Myloko wrote a rather long reply to this topic and I will address your remarks when I get a chance to fully read it. I can assure you I am a woman who is most likely much older than yourself having been educated in the 1960's - 1970's before word processors ( electric typewriter's was the original name and they didn't have spell check ) and way before PC's. The only computer then was IBM mainframe with a key punch function.

I must say what you did write seemed quite harsh for someone who claims to have several degrees. I would think with all that education you would know that times have changed for women in the last 50 - 100 years and what went on in my grandmother's time , my mother's time , my time and in your generation is quite different for each woman within the context of her culture, society and the world in general.

I do want to thank you for your comments as they show no matter how far we have come we still have a long way to go in terms of accepting that other people have opinions that may differ from our own and are just as valid as one's own. Many still need to learn we can agree to disagree.
:thanks: Yokomaru


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:32 am 
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I do remember typewritters, and DOS, and so many more things. However, times have changed since then and even more so since the time that mizuage was practiced. Women have more rights now than they did for your generation, and I'm sorry if I came off strong when voicing my own opinions, but I will speak up and voice my opinion when I feel strongly about something. Your initial opinion seemed very male dominating and it felt as though you were backtracking on the advances that women have made. I'm glad that you have clarified yourself on this matter though :)


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:36 pm 
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MYLOKO WROTE : Back in the 1950s countries all around the world did not recognize homosexual sex acts, so the only real definition of prostitution was the one that you provided. Western culture has nothing to do with that. :|
Yes cultures around the world have recognized homosexuality. There have been bans on it for centuries in many cultures even today. I stated the 1956 Law Banning Prostitution in Occupied Japan. Today in Japan there is prostitution which is legal in Soaplands which is what they call Red-Light Districts. I read a Statute on Prostitution about 15 years ago which is were I got the definition about what constitutes prostitution.
I was referring to BAISHUN KINSHI REI . BAISHUN BOSHI HO [ May 1956 Enforcement April 1 1958 } and JIDO FUKUSHI HO [ Dec 1956 ]

A danna never "owned" a particular maiko or geiko. They were financial supporters that did not control her life. Supporting a particular geisha (especially if they were popular) was seen as a status symbol and promoted a man's image as a patron of the arts. The only "perk" of being a danna was having priority to spend time with a certain maiko or geiko, but never in a sexual way.
:o While you say the only perk of being a danna was having priority to spend time with a certain maiko or geiko, but never in a sexual way that is a form of ownership. He owned her time. If he requested her presence at a particular event and she refused he could withdraw his patronage. How popular would a geiko be if she continued to turn down a wealthy patron ? If she turned down to many appointments her popularity as well as her earnings would nosedive. Part of her mystique was the wealthy patrons she attracted just the same way top models, actresses, artists and other professional performers owe their livelihood to their clientele. A top maiko / geiko is at the mercy of a fickle public.


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 Post subject: Re: MIZUAGE: ( 18+ Discussion )
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:59 pm 
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In most cases it was the woman's family who paid a dowry, not the man's.
:? How do you explain the custom of lobolo in African societies where a man must give X amount of goats, cows or what is decided on as the bride price. I will admit dowry may not have been the absolute best word but I'm sure if I had said lobolo nobody would have understood that term. Also in some culture's the dowry presented by the bride's family was a form of insurance in case no children were produced then she could be returned minus his expenditures for her support. Maybe not all cultures but it depends on the social standards. I will not even discuss Tibetan polyandry practices.
Why do you think that only men want sex? Women are sexual beings and not objects. Do you not think that women will do the exact same things as men for sex?
:| Yes women want sex in certain situations. I just don't hear to many cases of women using drugs to incapacitate a man to have sex with them ( GHB the date rape drug ) as it kind of defeats the purpose. An unconscious man doesn't get an erection, nor does a man who is extremely impaired with drugs or alcohol, and I don't hear too much about women penetrating unconscious men. It is only recently with women gaining economic power that they can afford to rent male escorts for the purposes of sex.
As far as women as sex objects, isn't that the main objection to pornography, strip clubs, and legalized prostitution ? That men are turning women into sex object by those methods ? And can you explain why in some cultures they perform female circumcision which is really the removal of the clitoris and all the labia, then sew the area shut with only a thin reed inserted like a catheter for the flow of urine ? Did you know some women have so much scar tissue that they can even be cut open on the wedding nite but since penetration seals the marriage deal many are ''persuaded '' to be penetrated anally ?Why some employee health plan won't cover birth control or abortion but will cover Viagra ? I could go on but I am now off topic.
Back in the 1950s the legal definition of prostitution did not include homosexual acts.
:| I never said it did. I said heterosexual which last time I checked was opposite sex partner's.
Yokomaru, whether informed or not, was suggesting that maiko and geiko were taught sexual techniques as part of their trade.
:? I think you came to the wrong conclusion as I didn't say all maiko / geiko learned sex as part of their training but there was a sexual component to the Yoshiwara type Pleasure Quarter’s. Part of a man's pleasure was sexual. They weren't all Patron's of the Arts as you seem to believe.
Even trying to account for English as a second language, the repeated references to women being owned by men is apauling. ( spell check appalling) There's too many sources (and living people) who can atest ( spell check attest ) to that tradition.............. [Since you mention it] GOOGLE CHROME! It has a built in spell checker! Everyone in the world should be made to use it! Seriously, sometimes I feel like the current generation of humanity is becoming more stupid than any others before it due to the numerous simple mistakes in spelling and grammar that are dooming the English language.
:D On this point I agree with you. Young people don't learn to spell as they have spell check if they even bother to use it.
Myloko wrote : Girls today and back in the day who "flirted" with men so that they would buy them goods isn't prostitution. It's just one way of women subconsciously testing the man's ability to mate (oh yeah, we're goin' old school anthropology here!) In it's basic form, a female chooses a male based on his fitness, which has many forms.

:? I don't know how it is where you live but where I live now and where I grew up “ flirting “ with a man to test a man's ability to mate ( ? ) is the definition of gold digger. It's not a test of his ability to mate but rather his ability and willingness to support the woman and any children that may result if he does become the suitable mate. Also when there is an expectation that the man will pay for everything on a date he is paying for the pleasure of the woman's company not necessarily sex. But as times have changed and men have been relieved of the duty or burden of paying for everything they have come to believe a modern woman owes them for the evening's entertainment . If she is “liberated “ then why does he have to pay for anything. Men have lost much of the respect they had when they were expected to pay for everything.

Here in Canada in 2013 the age of consent is 14, which is much lower than The States and likely closer to the age of consent in the Edo Period.
:| In many Southern States the age of consent is also 14, some as low as 11. Each state in The USA has a different age of consent so that would be 50 different sets of laws.

1) Mizuage was a ceremony/rite of passage that had an equivalent in many different societies throughout history (ie: not seen as forced)

2) However, most of the time it was done with the girl being uneducated about sexual matters and likely wasn't as traumatizing as rape would be today (In my books though, unwanted sex is still rape, so I feel bad for those poor girls


:( :? If there is a lack of consent as in the first example or being uneducated wasn't traumatizing as rape would be today as in the second example, I don't understand what you are trying to say. The point I was making was about the use of the eggs as lubricant and the length of time the ritual took as being less traumatizing. How many women are totally appalled by what happens to them on their wedding night when they get deflowered by a man in a hurry to get his marital right of sex with his virgin bride. In many cultures if the sheets aren't stained with blood then a marriage can be voided on the grounds that she wasn't a virgin. Not only the trauma but the reputation of damaged goods.
I also object to the romanticizing of a geisha as being in total control of her life and body in the past. We have to many accounts of girls being sold into Pleasure Quarter's many times for life. To think their parents were being paid so their daughters could get a good education is pure fantasy as who really cared back then if a poor girl got an education at all. I also find it very interesting that once their career ended many went into convents, rarely if ever leaving for the remainder of their lives by choice. If they had so many Patron's of the Art's at their beck and call why did they go into a life of vowed poverty and meditation instead of living in the lap of luxury provided by their many admirer's or their million yen savings. Truly it was the lucky one's who were able to inherit an okiya , ochaya, or have a rich admirer set them up in a profitable business to support them for the rest of their lives.

times have changed since then and even more so since the time that mizuage was practiced. Women have more rights now than they did for your generation, and I'm sorry if I came off strong when voicing my own opinions, but I will speak up and voice my opinion when I feel strongly about something. Your initial opinion seemed very male dominating and it felt as though you were backtracking on the advances that women have made.
:| Yes times have changed but we are deluding ourselves if we think that we have made as much progress as we should have. Since Roe v. Wade { a bench mark in The USA for women' s rights } We have less women CEO' s even though we have more women in the work force.
That's because we have more women working in the bottom end of the job market where we were trying to get out of in the first place.
Yes we have more women with College degrees but they still make less than a man with equal or slightly lower degrees then them. :?: :?: WHY IS THAT ?
My intention was not to label all geiko / maiko as prostitutes nor to condemn prostitution. It was simply to discuss a subject that did occur in the past in a manner that may or may not have been pleasant or to indicate it happens today. While the term is still used today the meaning has most likely changed. To learn the dialect's used in the various hanamachi ( as it has been indicated in texts on the subject, each one had variations so that if a girl who ran away was caught she could be returned to the designated district based on her speech patterns ) many words cross over while the original meaning is different district to district and in many cases lost to history.

:D Dalby even says in ''Kouta The Little Songs of Geisha'' { a translation cannot capture the many layer's of meaning contained in a single song ........ most Japanese who learn ko-uta today do not bother to analyze each song in a detailed way …... often unable to explain the exact meaning of phrases.....the overall meaning or perhaps ''feeling'' ….is clear to them. pg 16- -17 Introduction} :fresh:
:) The same is seen in kimono terminology where an item can have several names depending on the area of the country it is coming from and the skill of the translator. The term seems to still indicate that money is involved while the outright sale of a maiko's virginity is now frowned upon.

I realize this post is a long one but I wanted to fully address comments made in answer to my original post.
:thanks: Yokomaru


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