Dame-san and Fuyou-san brought up a most interesting question, one that I've considered myself.

What do you think of the notion of lesbianism and bisexuality among the Geisha community? Do you think it was uncommon or common? Consider the past, and consider the present time.

Japan is a society largely based on traditional values in terms of Marriage, and the future of every young woman. Even today women are expected to marry and have children, for a girl, or young woman who is bisexual or a lesbian, the Flower and Willow World may be that most perfect world for her to escape from a loveless Marriage, no?

Also, consider that, while Homosexuality is more open in Japan, Homosexual women are often looked down upon comparison to their male peers, which might explain the lack of knowledge towards this subject on Geisha.

I have heard nowadays Japan isn't so open to homosexuality as they once were. It was widely practiced among Samurai to choose a male partner back then, love between two men was seen as the purist form. Though today due to exposure to many western thoughts it is looked down on in society. Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual people are everywhere even though some people try to ignore that fact. SO yes I definitely believe that there was lesbianism in the pleasure quarters.

I also remember seeing a movie that had Tayuu or Oiran, I don't remember the name, and they had a plot between two girls who were secretly lovers.

well why not? just imagine a girl 15 years old, enters the flower and willow world. behind the makeup she is a normal pubescent girl and therefor she is also searching for her sexuality. and when you are only surrounded by girls and woman, it is kinda easier, to feel or to trust your feelings that you're maybe more into girls and not boys...

at least i am certain about this, because for 2 1/2 years i go to a only girls school and yes, there are more lesbians than in a "normal" school (no, not me XD).

Psychological studies also show that women's sexuality is in general more fluid then men's sexuality, so it's easier for women to atleast form serious attachments with other women, if not develop sexual feelings. It's a widely reported phenomenon in women's schools for past couple hundred years, even in cultures where homosexuality is looked down upon. So, there's no doubt in my mind that there's been (and probably still is in some form) bisexuality and lesbianism in the karyukai.

The 'acceptance' of lesbianism in America is pretty shallow. Most Americans who don't fully accept homosexuality but say they don't mind lesbianism are usually thinking of attractive lesbians who are also bisexual. They aren't thinking about the average janes, like women who don't fit their idealize beauty, who make up the majority of the lesbian population. America doesn't mind the fantasy of lesbianism, but the real thing is something that is still generally disliked.

The psychology surrounding homosexuality in America is an interesting subject. Forms of lesbianism are tolerated because it falls into an idealized fantasy, while male homosexuality is always considered something crude (by those who don't accept homosexuality specificially). Historically, girls in women's schools would often develop crushes on upperclassmen and teachers and this was tolerated as well mostly because it was seen as harmless. I've talked to people who don't tolerate homosexuality, and the belief they hold is that if they'll tolerate anything, it's lesbianism because it's seen as harmless. My belief is that this has to do with the innate misogynist tendencies that are still part of American culture, and anything generally involving women to exclusion of men was (and is) seen as harmless, frivoulous, etc.

Athough, the harmlessness disolves once this passes a certain point. People who don't tolerate homosexuality are willing to put up with it in certain situations or to a certain point most of the time, but once it passes that, then it's something that should be eliminated no matter what, and Lesbianism is included in that as well.



In Japan, it's generally alright to fantasize and idealize homosexuality, but actually participating in it is another matter entirely. Just like with Yaoi and shonen-ai, it's fun to read about it, but no one would actually want to see it in real life. It's still a big stigma to be gay in Japan, and girls are still expected to get married before they're 30. In fact, there's actually a bit of a stigma about writing yaoi, so if its enough to be embarrassed to write this, then I suppose one could imagine what it must mean to actually participate in homosexuality. But, there is a movement towards more accpetance in Japan, and there have actually been some pride events and parades in recent history, so I suppose not all is lost...

I'd like to rahter ask - how was it before Western morality influenced Japanese thinking. I mean, homosexuality was something quite normal in Japan, and tolerated, up to the point Christian religion came along.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not againt any religion, but it is true that in Christianity homosexuality is considered a sin. Japanese, who wanted to be more 'modern' took it up I guess. Before that it was a matter inside the walls of one's house, and since geisha and maiko were rahter restricted towards male-female relationships that were not geisha-danna relationships, they could develop some intimate bonds. It was not only about sex, but maybe about some warmth, and felling secure? Plus sex between women doesn't come with risk of pregnancy, does it?

I hope no one feels offended by my post here ^^

As A christian I am not offended, But I agree. I think that Christianity has had both negative and positive effects. I also quite agree with what you said about the women wanting to feel secure and having a little warmth makes complete sense.

Japan didn't actually take up Christian morality, they just adopted the surface of Western culture so that Western cultures would take them more seriously. Deep down, Japan was still Japan, and cultures heavily influenced by Christianity still are shocked by some of the things Japan considers alright.

For instance, when Tokyo was a candidate city for the Olympics, other countries and their newspapers were looking for ways to discredit Japan and they started writing articles about Japan's relationship with prostitution. Japan has a law against prostitution, but it's not the same law that other countries have and it's ignored to boot. Japanese culture still doesn't think there's a lot wrong with prostitution, and it still has enjo kosai (translated as 'Compesated Dating') and 'Selling Spring'. And, at the time when Tokyo was a candidate and other countries are discrediting them, people didn't even hide that they were selling prostitution. For example, there are people on the street giving out packets of tissues as advertisements (they use tissues as advertisements because many public restrooms don't provide toilet paper, so people are inclined to take the tissues). In these packets were phone numbers for 'escort' services and phone numbers of their popular 'escorts'. These advertisements weren't hidden at all, they were given out infront of department stores and near Police offices. These police officers knew what was going on, they didn't care. Nonetheless, because the critical eye of the West was directed upon them, Japan began enforcing its prostitution law and everything was clean by the time the Olympics came to Tokyo... and then became very unclean right after they left. Those enjo kosai tissue packets are beginning to make a comeback.

So really, it wasn't that Japan was suddenly Christianized and stopped homosexuality because of that, it's because the West in Meiji Period thought that homosexuality was the worst thing Japan was doing at the time, even worse than Yoshiwara. They were dealing with Victorian England it's strange ideals about sexuality, and homosexuality could not be explained away. Everyone knew that they had to stop homosexuality completely to gain the West's acceptance, while they could hide prostitution. The Japanese government had a huge crackdown on the act, and social stigma was the result of that.

But, I don't think that stigma is the same as the stigma it has in the West. The Western stigma is based very heavily in Christian-Judeo culture, while Japan's was a reaction to foreign influence. If they had truly taken up Christian values, then yaoi wouldn't be sold except to a small minority of homosexuals. Yaoi is instead directed towards women, showing that underneath it all, they don't consider the act evil, just not culturally permissable.

Before the West came, homosexuality wasn't viewed as a sin, but it was occasionally restricted by the government. Sexual behavior of all kinds was viewed more by social relations and social responsibility as opposed to a kind of religious morality.

Yeah, I just think that You said what I had in mind, and couldn't put in words correctly...

Thanks, Fuyouhime. that was a very nice comment. It just seems that I need to practice my communication skils

Maybe you will find interesting the comments at youtube videoclips about Hijra, the Indian traditional crossdressers. "There are men, women and something between. This third gender is hijra"
hidjra_of_INdia
hijra